1 00:01:05,167 --> 00:01:06,834 Good afternoon and welcome to 2 00:01:06,834 --> 00:01:09,767 Good afternoon and welcome to this brutal panel on the 3 00:01:09,767 --> 00:01:11,801 this brutal panel on the interconnectedness between 4 00:01:11,801 --> 00:01:13,533 interconnectedness between economics and the geopolitics 5 00:01:13,533 --> 00:01:14,801 economics and the geopolitics and represent them. I’m a 6 00:01:14,801 --> 00:01:17,467 and represent them. I’m a senior fellow at the brutal and 7 00:01:17,467 --> 00:01:20,267 senior fellow at the brutal and there’s a uh with the director 8 00:01:20,267 --> 00:01:21,634 there’s a uh with the director of the port can make policy 9 00:01:21,634 --> 00:01:25,333 of the port can make policy Institute and we are also uh 10 00:01:25,333 --> 00:01:28,000 Institute and we are also uh with uh touchy uh the director 11 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,801 with uh touchy uh the director of the Italian Institute for 12 00:01:29,801 --> 00:01:32,367 of the Italian Institute for International Affairs uh with 13 00:01:32,367 --> 00:01:34,000 International Affairs uh with uh and Marie Slaughter to see 14 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,466 uh and Marie Slaughter to see of the New America and we 15 00:01:36,466 --> 00:01:39,900 of the New America and we Alexander. The uh the team of 16 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:42,633 Alexander. The uh the team of the new School of international 17 00:01:42,633 --> 00:01:44,667 the new School of international governance at the European 18 00:01:44,667 --> 00:01:45,466 governance at the European University Institute in 19 00:01:45,466 --> 00:01:47,867 University Institute in Florence, We are going to be 20 00:01:47,867 --> 00:01:49,400 Florence, We are going to be hopefully joined very soon by 21 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,634 hopefully joined very soon by Dominic Moi of the city of 22 00:01:52,634 --> 00:01:53,400 Dominic Moi of the city of Montana, who has some 23 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,266 Montana, who has some connection problems uh but 24 00:01:55,266 --> 00:01:58,367 connection problems uh but let’s start uh already this is 25 00:01:58,367 --> 00:02:00,667 let’s start uh already this is what we’re going to discuss uh 26 00:02:00,667 --> 00:02:03,800 what we’re going to discuss uh today um is uh you know how we 27 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,967 today um is uh you know how we should think about the the way 28 00:02:05,967 --> 00:02:10,633 should think about the the way uh. That we kept separate now 29 00:02:10,633 --> 00:02:11,699 uh. That we kept separate now things that we kept separate 30 00:02:11,699 --> 00:02:14,767 things that we kept separate that the economy’s fear trade 31 00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:17,600 that the economy’s fear trade finance money uh you know 32 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,867 finance money uh you know whatever it is um belongs to 33 00:02:19,867 --> 00:02:22,301 whatever it is um belongs to the remit of economy finance 34 00:02:22,301 --> 00:02:25,267 the remit of economy finance ministers and uh what belongs 35 00:02:25,267 --> 00:02:26,833 ministers and uh what belongs traditionally to the remit of 36 00:02:26,833 --> 00:02:30,300 traditionally to the remit of uh foreign affairs and defense 37 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:33,934 uh foreign affairs and defense minister uh so and the sort of 38 00:02:33,934 --> 00:02:37,367 minister uh so and the sort of power relationship and I. They 39 00:02:37,367 --> 00:02:38,699 power relationship and I. They were kept separate, obviously 40 00:02:38,699 --> 00:02:41,234 were kept separate, obviously he’s a very strong uh deep 41 00:02:41,234 --> 00:02:42,699 he’s a very strong uh deep connections. I mean the way 42 00:02:42,699 --> 00:02:44,500 connections. I mean the way that there was a world system. 43 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:46,933 that there was a world system. uh we’ve been living in was 44 00:02:46,933 --> 00:02:48,267 uh we’ve been living in was conceived in the immediate 45 00:02:48,267 --> 00:02:50,000 conceived in the immediate after mass of the second World 46 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,934 after mass of the second World War, whether there was a 47 00:02:51,934 --> 00:02:53,833 War, whether there was a connection that the uh the 48 00:02:53,833 --> 00:02:55,833 connection that the uh the economy relationship serve as a 49 00:02:55,833 --> 00:02:57,266 economy relationship serve as a glue for what was called, then 50 00:02:57,266 --> 00:02:59,867 glue for what was called, then the free world uh and then uh 51 00:02:59,867 --> 00:03:01,933 the free world uh and then uh the um the globalization was 52 00:03:01,933 --> 00:03:03,733 the um the globalization was meant to serve as a as a glue 53 00:03:03,733 --> 00:03:05,867 meant to serve as a as a glue to the sort of broader set. Uh 54 00:03:05,867 --> 00:03:07,534 to the sort of broader set. Uh Mitch has set of countries but 55 00:03:07,534 --> 00:03:09,666 Mitch has set of countries but participating in it and 56 00:03:09,666 --> 00:03:11,467 participating in it and hopefully uh being um um and 57 00:03:11,467 --> 00:03:13,799 hopefully uh being um um and peace with each other. uh so 58 00:03:13,799 --> 00:03:17,200 peace with each other. uh so there was a link but but the uh 59 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:18,699 there was a link but but the uh in in practical terms, the 60 00:03:18,699 --> 00:03:19,433 in in practical terms, the issue will look at very 61 00:03:19,433 --> 00:03:21,866 issue will look at very receptive and there were few 62 00:03:21,866 --> 00:03:23,200 receptive and there were few instances in which they were 63 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,200 instances in which they were interferences in which you 64 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,833 interferences in which you know, finance ministers the 65 00:03:26,833 --> 00:03:29,334 know, finance ministers the people that he had to deal with 66 00:03:29,334 --> 00:03:31,200 people that he had to deal with issues that uh had a much more 67 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,233 issues that uh had a much more a geopolitical dimension, for 68 00:03:33,233 --> 00:03:35,233 a geopolitical dimension, for example for sanctions against 69 00:03:35,233 --> 00:03:36,800 example for sanctions against certain countries um now. 70 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,466 certain countries um now. Entered apparently a new type 71 00:03:39,466 --> 00:03:41,133 Entered apparently a new type of situation in which the 72 00:03:41,133 --> 00:03:43,267 of situation in which the interconnection are much more 73 00:03:43,267 --> 00:03:44,734 interconnection are much more present to think of a number of 74 00:03:44,734 --> 00:03:46,267 present to think of a number of things we are we seeing uh 75 00:03:46,267 --> 00:03:48,834 things we are we seeing uh around us the trade dispute 76 00:03:48,834 --> 00:03:50,234 around us the trade dispute between China and the US. What 77 00:03:50,234 --> 00:03:52,267 between China and the US. What are we speaking of? are we 78 00:03:52,267 --> 00:03:52,967 are we speaking of? are we speaking of economic 79 00:03:52,967 --> 00:03:54,634 speaking of economic relationship? Always speaking 80 00:03:54,634 --> 00:03:57,633 relationship? Always speaking of jeopardy rivalry um that 81 00:03:57,633 --> 00:04:00,367 of jeopardy rivalry um that think of you know uh political 82 00:04:00,367 --> 00:04:01,300 think of you know uh political determining investment and all 83 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:02,300 determining investment and all the discussion and investment 84 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:05,067 the discussion and investment in the you especially Chinese 85 00:04:05,067 --> 00:04:06,600 in the you especially Chinese investment into you uh 86 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,833 investment into you uh sanction. Uh the the Iran 87 00:04:08,833 --> 00:04:12,266 sanction. Uh the the Iran sanctions and the interference 88 00:04:12,266 --> 00:04:13,967 sanctions and the interference between the relationship 89 00:04:13,967 --> 00:04:16,400 between the relationship between the US and Iran and uh 90 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,333 between the US and Iran and uh and all the the the the the 91 00:04:20,333 --> 00:04:23,200 and all the the the the the world um the discussion over uh 92 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:24,667 world um the discussion over uh the Belt and Road initiative 93 00:04:24,667 --> 00:04:26,701 the Belt and Road initiative and the way the Belt and Road 94 00:04:26,701 --> 00:04:28,234 and the way the Belt and Road initiative is at the same time 95 00:04:28,234 --> 00:04:28,733 initiative is at the same time so the foreign policy 96 00:04:28,733 --> 00:04:30,899 so the foreign policy initiative and the economy and 97 00:04:30,899 --> 00:04:32,867 initiative and the economy and furnishings by by China so all 98 00:04:32,867 --> 00:04:35,267 furnishings by by China so all these issues are the issues we 99 00:04:35,267 --> 00:04:36,900 these issues are the issues we have to deal with now. so we 100 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:37,967 have to deal with now. so we thought as the economist that 101 00:04:37,967 --> 00:04:41,067 thought as the economist that brutal. 102 00:05:16,366 --> 00:05:17,066 Recommendation persecution and 103 00:05:17,066 --> 00:05:19,133 Recommendation persecution and power for the U uh what does it 104 00:05:19,133 --> 00:05:22,333 power for the U uh what does it imply for this particular actor 105 00:05:22,333 --> 00:05:24,333 imply for this particular actor and the U? How should it or not 106 00:05:24,333 --> 00:05:26,700 and the U? How should it or not uh change the way it deals with 107 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:29,467 uh change the way it deals with the issues? let me before we 108 00:05:29,467 --> 00:05:31,099 the issues? let me before we move on the welcome Dominican 109 00:05:31,099 --> 00:05:34,400 move on the welcome Dominican The Saint Dominic has a has a 110 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,233 The Saint Dominic has a has a family joined I finally okay 111 00:05:38,233 --> 00:05:40,500 family joined I finally okay good uh good to good to good 112 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:43,500 good uh good to good to good news. 113 00:05:43,767 --> 00:05:46,767 If you see me uh I can see I 114 00:05:46,767 --> 00:05:48,367 If you see me uh I can see I can see you better than I can 115 00:05:48,367 --> 00:05:51,000 can see you better than I can that I can hear you but uh 116 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,933 that I can hear you but uh probably will be fix. Okay Hey, 117 00:05:53,933 --> 00:05:54,866 probably will be fix. Okay Hey, but for this discussion, 118 00:05:54,866 --> 00:05:55,533 but for this discussion, Dominique it’s quite 119 00:05:55,533 --> 00:05:58,234 Dominique it’s quite interesting because on zoom, it 120 00:05:58,234 --> 00:06:01,967 interesting because on zoom, it says, who are pten. 121 00:06:04,266 --> 00:06:06,000 Well, I think this is the 122 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,733 Well, I think this is the Chinese they try to destroy my 123 00:06:09,733 --> 00:06:13,733 Chinese they try to destroy my absolutely I hadn’t seen it 124 00:06:13,733 --> 00:06:15,266 absolutely I hadn’t seen it good. um let’s start with 125 00:06:15,266 --> 00:06:16,866 good. um let’s start with Natalie if you can keep all of 126 00:06:16,866 --> 00:06:18,267 Natalie if you can keep all of you your your your initial 127 00:06:18,267 --> 00:06:19,467 you your your your initial remarks to be short so that we 128 00:06:19,467 --> 00:06:20,966 remarks to be short so that we can have you know sort of the 129 00:06:20,966 --> 00:06:24,334 can have you know sort of the first round and then and then a 130 00:06:24,334 --> 00:06:26,266 first round and then and then a discussion. Yeah. Well. Sean 131 00:06:26,266 --> 00:06:27,533 discussion. Yeah. Well. Sean Let me let me show the start of 132 00:06:27,533 --> 00:06:31,267 Let me let me show the start of by saying that um in a sense of 133 00:06:31,267 --> 00:06:32,967 by saying that um in a sense of connection between uh 134 00:06:32,967 --> 00:06:34,633 connection between uh international politics and the 135 00:06:34,633 --> 00:06:36,734 international politics and the economy has I mean in the. It’s 136 00:06:36,734 --> 00:06:38,934 economy has I mean in the. It’s as old as international 137 00:06:38,934 --> 00:06:40,633 as old as international relations itself. I mean what 138 00:06:40,633 --> 00:06:42,366 relations itself. I mean what kind of you know could go as 139 00:06:42,366 --> 00:06:44,600 kind of you know could go as far back as the Philippines and 140 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:45,767 far back as the Philippines and wars, which I obviously won’t 141 00:06:45,767 --> 00:06:49,000 wars, which I obviously won’t do uh over over 5 minutes um 142 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,234 do uh over over 5 minutes um and uh and I think even sort of 143 00:06:51,234 --> 00:06:52,834 and uh and I think even sort of looking at the movies and past 144 00:06:52,834 --> 00:06:54,600 looking at the movies and past one only needs to think of the 145 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,867 one only needs to think of the fact that uh the economy played 146 00:06:56,867 --> 00:06:58,299 fact that uh the economy played such an important role for 147 00:06:58,299 --> 00:07:00,666 such an important role for instance, spearheading the most 148 00:07:00,666 --> 00:07:02,266 instance, spearheading the most ambitious international 149 00:07:02,266 --> 00:07:04,299 ambitious international political project that has ever 150 00:07:04,299 --> 00:07:05,133 political project that has ever existed, which I would argue 151 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:06,767 existed, which I would argue the European Union uh the role 152 00:07:06,767 --> 00:07:10,367 the European Union uh the role of the. Me and uh again 153 00:07:10,367 --> 00:07:12,900 of the. Me and uh again triggering or you know at the 154 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:15,134 triggering or you know at the end of the Cold War in many 155 00:07:15,134 --> 00:07:17,034 end of the Cold War in many respects uh and and I would 156 00:07:17,034 --> 00:07:19,933 respects uh and and I would argue also accelerating the 157 00:07:19,933 --> 00:07:22,200 argue also accelerating the Arabs and question marks the 158 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,499 Arabs and question marks the possible collapse of the United 159 00:07:23,499 --> 00:07:25,367 possible collapse of the United States. So I think you know the 160 00:07:25,367 --> 00:07:26,267 States. So I think you know the economy has always been there 161 00:07:26,267 --> 00:07:27,900 economy has always been there even in recent times, but I 162 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:29,367 even in recent times, but I think you’re absolutely right 163 00:07:29,367 --> 00:07:31,666 think you’re absolutely right in suggesting that in a sense 164 00:07:31,666 --> 00:07:33,199 in suggesting that in a sense that was a period in the recent 165 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:34,700 that was a period in the recent past, whether it was a degree 166 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:36,800 past, whether it was a degree of amnesia and that degree of 167 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,634 of amnesia and that degree of amnesia was in a sense first 168 00:07:38,634 --> 00:07:41,133 amnesia was in a sense first because uh the common. If we 169 00:07:41,133 --> 00:07:42,799 because uh the common. If we take the Cold war period the 170 00:07:42,799 --> 00:07:45,166 take the Cold war period the economy in a sense counted to 171 00:07:45,166 --> 00:07:46,000 economy in a sense counted to little in many respects, I mean 172 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,200 little in many respects, I mean the defining feature of the 173 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,833 the defining feature of the Cold War uh was basically the 174 00:07:50,833 --> 00:07:52,267 Cold War uh was basically the security. I’m in particular 175 00:07:52,267 --> 00:07:54,600 security. I’m in particular nuclear and and the economy in 176 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,400 nuclear and and the economy in a sense played a very much 177 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,033 a sense played a very much second federal as I suggested 178 00:07:58,033 --> 00:08:00,234 second federal as I suggested uh I did all the pay that an 179 00:08:00,234 --> 00:08:02,000 uh I did all the pay that an important part in triggering 180 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,367 important part in triggering the end of the whole system in 181 00:08:04,367 --> 00:08:05,867 the end of the whole system in particular the collapse of the 182 00:08:05,867 --> 00:08:07,733 particular the collapse of the Soviet Union and then in the 183 00:08:07,733 --> 00:08:10,634 Soviet Union and then in the sense we kind of look at the. 184 00:08:10,634 --> 00:08:12,667 sense we kind of look at the. At 30 years, uh uh as you were 185 00:08:12,667 --> 00:08:15,200 At 30 years, uh uh as you were hinting the economy too much of 186 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,800 hinting the economy too much of a role uh too much of a role 187 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,067 a role uh too much of a role and therefore shadowing the 188 00:08:19,067 --> 00:08:21,199 and therefore shadowing the role of international political 189 00:08:21,199 --> 00:08:21,967 role of international political dynamics. You know we live it 190 00:08:21,967 --> 00:08:25,500 dynamics. You know we live it live uh in in an end of history 191 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:27,167 live uh in in an end of history uh well uh uh the uni polar 192 00:08:27,167 --> 00:08:29,367 uh well uh uh the uni polar moment in which uh the economy 193 00:08:29,367 --> 00:08:31,500 moment in which uh the economy the economy of rules supreme So 194 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:32,834 the economy of rules supreme So in many respects, I think you 195 00:08:32,834 --> 00:08:33,967 in many respects, I think you know the period that we’re 196 00:08:33,967 --> 00:08:35,467 know the period that we’re entering now rather than we 197 00:08:35,467 --> 00:08:38,133 entering now rather than we have and now is in some 198 00:08:38,133 --> 00:08:40,333 have and now is in some respects when can we? As a sort 199 00:08:40,333 --> 00:08:41,967 respects when can we? As a sort of return to normality and that 200 00:08:41,967 --> 00:08:44,767 of return to normality and that will return to a situation in 201 00:08:44,767 --> 00:08:46,767 will return to a situation in which both the economy and the 202 00:08:46,767 --> 00:08:47,733 which both the economy and the international developments not 203 00:08:47,733 --> 00:08:49,801 international developments not only play an equal role but 204 00:08:49,801 --> 00:08:51,600 only play an equal role but very much at interact now, 205 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:52,800 very much at interact now, having said this, I do think 206 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,467 having said this, I do think that it’s worth reflecting as 207 00:08:55,467 --> 00:08:56,866 that it’s worth reflecting as to whether this particular 208 00:08:56,866 --> 00:08:58,933 to whether this particular moment suggest something 209 00:08:58,933 --> 00:09:00,400 moment suggest something different from that the next as 210 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,933 different from that the next as we knew it in the past, and I 211 00:09:02,933 --> 00:09:04,899 we knew it in the past, and I would say that in at least two 212 00:09:04,899 --> 00:09:07,299 would say that in at least two way it does uh firstly and 213 00:09:07,299 --> 00:09:08,734 way it does uh firstly and again you were hinting at this 214 00:09:08,734 --> 00:09:13,200 again you were hinting at this uh the new major international. 215 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,000 uh the new major international. That between the United States 216 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,267 That between the United States and China is very much 217 00:09:17,267 --> 00:09:18,734 and China is very much articulated through the 218 00:09:18,734 --> 00:09:19,967 articulated through the economy, It’s basically there 219 00:09:19,967 --> 00:09:21,134 economy, It’s basically there where the real competition 220 00:09:21,134 --> 00:09:22,800 where the real competition takes place at least for the 221 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,567 takes place at least for the time being uh it is not uh in 222 00:09:25,567 --> 00:09:26,500 time being uh it is not uh in in the in the security here in 223 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:28,700 in the in the security here in the sphere and some respects, 224 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:30,833 the sphere and some respects, it’s kind of hope it stays that 225 00:09:30,833 --> 00:09:32,334 it’s kind of hope it stays that way uh and and therefore, this 226 00:09:32,334 --> 00:09:33,967 way uh and and therefore, this is basically how I mean, 227 00:09:33,967 --> 00:09:36,200 is basically how I mean, obviously under underlying that 228 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,667 obviously under underlying that economic confrontation, there 229 00:09:37,667 --> 00:09:38,933 economic confrontation, there is a political and ideological 230 00:09:38,933 --> 00:09:40,333 is a political and ideological confrontation. You know what is 231 00:09:40,333 --> 00:09:42,699 confrontation. You know what is the system of government? Can 232 00:09:42,699 --> 00:09:45,199 the system of government? Can basically deliver the rate of 233 00:09:45,199 --> 00:09:45,967 basically deliver the rate of prosperity. We can’t thought 234 00:09:45,967 --> 00:09:47,267 prosperity. We can’t thought over the last 30 years, there 235 00:09:47,267 --> 00:09:49,301 over the last 30 years, there was basically no question about 236 00:09:49,301 --> 00:09:50,000 was basically no question about it and the whole point about 237 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,533 it and the whole point about this confrontation is that that 238 00:09:51,533 --> 00:09:53,400 this confrontation is that that question mark is being raised 239 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,533 question mark is being raised in some people’s minds. So I 240 00:09:55,533 --> 00:09:57,900 in some people’s minds. So I think the the economy you know 241 00:09:57,900 --> 00:09:59,433 think the the economy you know that next is becoming more 242 00:09:59,433 --> 00:10:01,267 that next is becoming more important because of the very 243 00:10:01,267 --> 00:10:03,100 important because of the very nature of the internet, the 244 00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:04,267 nature of the internet, the major international 245 00:10:04,267 --> 00:10:05,334 major international confrontation that the 246 00:10:05,334 --> 00:10:06,000 confrontation that the twenty-first century is 247 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,367 twenty-first century is basically going to be living 248 00:10:07,367 --> 00:10:08,934 basically going to be living through and secondly, and 249 00:10:08,934 --> 00:10:10,167 through and secondly, and perhaps in particular, and I’m 250 00:10:10,167 --> 00:10:12,833 perhaps in particular, and I’m sure it’s going. More about 251 00:10:12,833 --> 00:10:13,967 sure it’s going. More about this because of the nature that 252 00:10:13,967 --> 00:10:16,699 this because of the nature that you know the the the degree to 253 00:10:16,699 --> 00:10:17,667 you know the the the degree to which we are far more 254 00:10:17,667 --> 00:10:19,100 which we are far more interconnected than we have 255 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:22,933 interconnected than we have ever been in the past and that 256 00:10:22,933 --> 00:10:24,133 ever been in the past and that connectivity obviously means 257 00:10:24,133 --> 00:10:25,699 connectivity obviously means that when it comes to the 258 00:10:25,699 --> 00:10:28,299 that when it comes to the political economic nexus uh it 259 00:10:28,299 --> 00:10:31,067 political economic nexus uh it is not in a sense. a simple mix 260 00:10:31,067 --> 00:10:32,200 is not in a sense. a simple mix as we’ve known it in the past, 261 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,966 as we’ve known it in the past, but it basically unfolds in 262 00:10:33,966 --> 00:10:35,466 but it basically unfolds in many different ways. Now you 263 00:10:35,466 --> 00:10:37,867 many different ways. Now you mentioned uh the trade wars uh 264 00:10:37,867 --> 00:10:39,733 mentioned uh the trade wars uh one you know the related to 265 00:10:39,733 --> 00:10:42,766 one you know the related to this to the organization of the 266 00:10:42,766 --> 00:10:44,400 this to the organization of the economy as a major political 267 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,500 economy as a major political instrument at times even. Used 268 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:49,033 instrument at times even. Used by allies on allies, we think 269 00:10:49,033 --> 00:10:50,301 by allies on allies, we think of the use of secondary 270 00:10:50,301 --> 00:10:52,000 of the use of secondary sanctions by the United States 271 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,967 sanctions by the United States on the European Union. You 272 00:10:53,967 --> 00:10:55,801 on the European Union. You raise the five G question the 273 00:10:55,801 --> 00:10:57,834 raise the five G question the weatherization of energy in 274 00:10:57,834 --> 00:10:59,334 weatherization of energy in Russia, so basically it is not 275 00:10:59,334 --> 00:11:01,800 Russia, so basically it is not only because of the great 276 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:02,400 only because of the great connectivity uh but also 277 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,333 connectivity uh but also because that connectivity 278 00:11:05,333 --> 00:11:07,801 because that connectivity really sort of um uh uh plays 279 00:11:07,801 --> 00:11:10,000 really sort of um uh uh plays out in so many fields, which 280 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,900 out in so many fields, which are not perhaps strictly 281 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:13,000 are not perhaps strictly economics or politics, but 282 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,034 economics or politics, but everything that revolves around 283 00:11:15,034 --> 00:11:17,200 everything that revolves around them. Thank. So anyway, what 284 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,666 them. Thank. So anyway, what you’re saying back to normal, 285 00:11:18,666 --> 00:11:21,401 you’re saying back to normal, but with a twist and a twist 286 00:11:21,401 --> 00:11:22,667 but with a twist and a twist that the economy could be 287 00:11:22,667 --> 00:11:25,234 that the economy could be becoming weaponized and so the 288 00:11:25,234 --> 00:11:27,233 becoming weaponized and so the confrontation takes place on 289 00:11:27,233 --> 00:11:31,400 confrontation takes place on the economy uh front um Dominic 290 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,800 the economy uh front um Dominic can you uh follow up uh and uh 291 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,399 can you uh follow up uh and uh give us your views? Yes uh can 292 00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:42,534 give us your views? Yes uh can you hear me well now? yes. Um 293 00:11:42,534 --> 00:11:45,201 you hear me well now? yes. Um II wanted to follow on what was 294 00:11:45,201 --> 00:11:50,167 II wanted to follow on what was just said um I tend to look at 295 00:11:50,167 --> 00:11:53,200 just said um I tend to look at it from a historical point of 296 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:58,700 it from a historical point of view um in 1909 uh Norman and 297 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:00,934 view um in 1909 uh Norman and published a book, The Great 298 00:12:00,934 --> 00:12:04,666 published a book, The Great Illusion in which he was uh 299 00:12:04,666 --> 00:12:07,700 Illusion in which he was uh saying that war had become 300 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:09,234 saying that war had become impossible because it was too 301 00:12:09,234 --> 00:12:13,567 impossible because it was too costly. It was irrational. 302 00:12:41,834 --> 00:12:43,600 Escalation and that’s why he 303 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,867 Escalation and that’s why he said, don’t go in that 304 00:12:45,867 --> 00:12:48,300 said, don’t go in that direction, which is totally 305 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:52,201 direction, which is totally irrational much closer to us. I 306 00:12:52,201 --> 00:12:55,434 irrational much closer to us. I remember attending uh World 307 00:12:55,434 --> 00:12:58,300 remember attending uh World economic forum in Davos where 308 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,133 economic forum in Davos where uh people were saying at the 309 00:13:01,133 --> 00:13:05,767 uh people were saying at the end of the 1990s geopolitics is 310 00:13:05,767 --> 00:13:08,734 end of the 1990s geopolitics is fine. Unfortunately there is a 311 00:13:08,734 --> 00:13:11,600 fine. Unfortunately there is a GO economic crisis in Asia if 312 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,667 GO economic crisis in Asia if only. Economist could be as 313 00:13:14,667 --> 00:13:16,633 only. Economist could be as good as geopolitics. It was of 314 00:13:16,633 --> 00:13:19,000 good as geopolitics. It was of course the time of the uni 315 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,733 course the time of the uni polar moment of the United 316 00:13:21,733 --> 00:13:25,200 polar moment of the United States and a few years later in 317 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,867 States and a few years later in divorce right after 911, it was 318 00:13:27,867 --> 00:13:29,733 divorce right after 911, it was just the reverse. reverse if 319 00:13:29,733 --> 00:13:33,233 just the reverse. reverse if only geopolitics could go as 320 00:13:33,233 --> 00:13:36,267 only geopolitics could go as well as you economics and the 321 00:13:36,267 --> 00:13:39,767 well as you economics and the specificity of uh today in 322 00:13:39,767 --> 00:13:43,200 specificity of uh today in 2020. 2020 is that Geo. And 323 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,000 2020. 2020 is that Geo. And economics seem to be going in 324 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,767 economics seem to be going in the same direction. They are 325 00:13:48,767 --> 00:13:51,200 the same direction. They are not only interconnected they 326 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,900 not only interconnected they both are going badly and uh if 327 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:59,200 both are going badly and uh if you read uh uh Margaret 328 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,000 you read uh uh Margaret MacMillan and uh a recent 329 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,434 MacMillan and uh a recent article in foreign affairs and 330 00:14:04,434 --> 00:14:07,300 article in foreign affairs and she says, well, we have to 331 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,767 she says, well, we have to compare uh the economics uh 332 00:14:09,767 --> 00:14:12,834 compare uh the economics uh with the 1930s. This is where. 333 00:14:12,834 --> 00:14:15,234 with the 1930s. This is where. May stand today with the huge 334 00:14:15,234 --> 00:14:17,833 May stand today with the huge economic crisis we are 335 00:14:17,833 --> 00:14:20,167 economic crisis we are witnessing and the geology 336 00:14:20,167 --> 00:14:22,367 witnessing and the geology crisis uh well we have to look 337 00:14:22,367 --> 00:14:25,799 crisis uh well we have to look at the 1910 uh we are uh on the 338 00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:28,600 at the 1910 uh we are uh on the eve of World War one with the 339 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,500 eve of World War one with the rise of nationalism all over. 340 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:35,433 rise of nationalism all over. Oh, oh, can we face uh that uh 341 00:14:35,433 --> 00:14:38,300 Oh, oh, can we face uh that uh uh electrical interconnection 342 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:40,633 uh electrical interconnection that goes in the wrong 343 00:14:40,633 --> 00:14:43,334 that goes in the wrong direction and it seems to. In 344 00:14:43,334 --> 00:14:47,167 direction and it seems to. In this story uh in light of what 345 00:14:47,167 --> 00:14:49,800 this story uh in light of what uh I have been saying so far, 346 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,900 uh I have been saying so far, there are two elements which 347 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:55,167 there are two elements which are reinforcing negatively the 348 00:14:55,167 --> 00:14:56,299 are reinforcing negatively the internet connection between Geo 349 00:14:56,299 --> 00:14:59,267 internet connection between Geo Politics and economics and the 350 00:14:59,267 --> 00:15:01,767 Politics and economics and the first one of course is the 351 00:15:01,767 --> 00:15:06,367 first one of course is the nineteen is uh the uh uh the 352 00:15:06,367 --> 00:15:08,766 nineteen is uh the uh uh the pandemic itself, which has 353 00:15:08,766 --> 00:15:11,466 pandemic itself, which has created so many bridges uh 354 00:15:11,466 --> 00:15:17,067 created so many bridges uh between politics and. Uh people 355 00:15:17,067 --> 00:15:18,966 between politics and. Uh people uh should we give priority to 356 00:15:18,966 --> 00:15:20,733 uh should we give priority to health or should we give 357 00:15:20,733 --> 00:15:23,666 health or should we give priority to the economics uh 358 00:15:23,666 --> 00:15:26,467 priority to the economics uh with um someone like Francis 359 00:15:26,467 --> 00:15:30,267 with um someone like Francis Kuya saying the covid-nineteen 360 00:15:30,267 --> 00:15:33,267 Kuya saying the covid-nineteen is politically neutral. uh it 361 00:15:33,267 --> 00:15:36,667 is politically neutral. uh it doesn’t favor uh authoritarian 362 00:15:36,667 --> 00:15:38,833 doesn’t favor uh authoritarian regime or democratic regime. 363 00:15:38,833 --> 00:15:41,900 regime or democratic regime. What it favors is competence 364 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:46,900 What it favors is competence and uh. And the need to be 365 00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:47,900 and uh. And the need to be trusted by your citizens, but 366 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,866 trusted by your citizens, but there is a second element which 367 00:15:50,866 --> 00:15:52,299 there is a second element which was already mentioned uh and, 368 00:15:52,299 --> 00:15:54,734 was already mentioned uh and, of course, that is the 369 00:15:54,734 --> 00:15:56,766 of course, that is the competition between China and 370 00:15:56,766 --> 00:15:59,200 competition between China and the United States If we have 371 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,800 the United States If we have entered a new cold war this 372 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,333 entered a new cold war this cold war is totally different 373 00:16:04,333 --> 00:16:06,667 cold war is totally different from the first one uh the 374 00:16:06,667 --> 00:16:08,900 from the first one uh the Americans uh know the world 375 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:11,199 Americans uh know the world needed the Soviet Union 376 00:16:11,199 --> 00:16:13,767 needed the Soviet Union economically was not we’re not 377 00:16:13,767 --> 00:16:16,566 economically was not we’re not dependent upon the Soviet union 378 00:16:16,566 --> 00:16:18,933 dependent upon the Soviet union economically. Just the reverse 379 00:16:18,933 --> 00:16:22,667 economically. Just the reverse right now and we see uh a 380 00:16:22,667 --> 00:16:25,133 right now and we see uh a natural interconnection that is 381 00:16:25,133 --> 00:16:29,366 natural interconnection that is reinforced negatively with the 382 00:16:29,366 --> 00:16:32,534 reinforced negatively with the start of the New Cold War in 383 00:16:32,534 --> 00:16:35,433 start of the New Cold War in which we live today. Okay. 384 00:16:35,433 --> 00:16:37,000 which we live today. Okay. Thank you I have to it’s good 385 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,800 Thank you I have to it’s good that you stop now because 386 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:39,967 that you stop now because you’re you’re sort of we’re 387 00:16:39,967 --> 00:16:44,867 you’re you’re sort of we’re getting very depressed right uh 388 00:16:44,867 --> 00:16:47,333 getting very depressed right uh by presiding that you know we 389 00:16:47,333 --> 00:16:51,034 by presiding that you know we have this coincidence of 390 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,399 Clovis but that basically both 391 00:16:55,399 --> 00:16:57,800 Clovis but that basically both going the same direction and 392 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,167 going the same direction and that there’s no side that saves 393 00:16:59,167 --> 00:17:03,733 that there’s no side that saves the other one uh but um from. 394 00:17:03,733 --> 00:17:06,334 the other one uh but um from. The economy perspective because 395 00:17:06,334 --> 00:17:08,801 The economy perspective because we had two um you know sort of 396 00:17:08,801 --> 00:17:10,267 we had two um you know sort of international perspectives. 397 00:17:10,267 --> 00:17:11,667 international perspectives. What would you say this issue? 398 00:17:11,667 --> 00:17:13,000 What would you say this issue? I mean, do you do you agree 399 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,233 I mean, do you do you agree with the fact that we should 400 00:17:15,233 --> 00:17:16,700 with the fact that we should change more fundamentally the 401 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:19,967 change more fundamentally the way we think about issues you 402 00:17:19,967 --> 00:17:22,234 way we think about issues you know that’s a difficult 403 00:17:22,234 --> 00:17:23,266 know that’s a difficult question connected to and 404 00:17:23,266 --> 00:17:23,699 question connected to and connecting economics and 405 00:17:23,699 --> 00:17:27,300 connecting economics and politics. Uh polish people are 406 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:28,933 politics. Uh polish people are sucks and geo politics uh 407 00:17:28,933 --> 00:17:30,366 sucks and geo politics uh because of the education and 408 00:17:30,366 --> 00:17:31,900 because of the education and and because of history uh that 409 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:35,966 and because of history uh that we learn and this is uh. A 410 00:17:35,966 --> 00:17:38,801 we learn and this is uh. A debate uh that’s most uh people 411 00:17:38,801 --> 00:17:42,299 debate uh that’s most uh people from my country specialist on 412 00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:44,201 from my country specialist on so to be a special some geo 413 00:17:44,201 --> 00:17:48,234 so to be a special some geo politics, but talking about 414 00:17:48,234 --> 00:17:50,434 politics, but talking about those this interconnection I 415 00:17:50,434 --> 00:17:53,167 those this interconnection I would go with a parallel from 416 00:17:53,167 --> 00:17:58,234 would go with a parallel from pop culture um is um there’s a 417 00:17:58,234 --> 00:18:00,399 pop culture um is um there’s a great movie. Watch it uh Free 418 00:18:00,399 --> 00:18:02,234 great movie. Watch it uh Free Kings with George Clooney and 419 00:18:02,234 --> 00:18:04,300 Kings with George Clooney and one of them uh one of the one 420 00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:07,199 one of them uh one of the one of the moments George Clooney’s 421 00:18:07,199 --> 00:18:10,533 of the moments George Clooney’s character um. His fellow what. 422 00:18:10,533 --> 00:18:12,166 character um. His fellow what. the most important thing in 423 00:18:12,166 --> 00:18:15,466 the most important thing in life and he says no not respect 424 00:18:15,466 --> 00:18:17,633 life and he says no not respect not love not God’s will what is 425 00:18:17,633 --> 00:18:19,334 not love not God’s will what is it then inquires one of the 426 00:18:19,334 --> 00:18:22,234 it then inquires one of the soldiers necessity replies 427 00:18:22,234 --> 00:18:24,600 soldiers necessity replies Clooney uh as in as in people 428 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,234 Clooney uh as in as in people do what is most necessary to 429 00:18:26,234 --> 00:18:30,266 do what is most necessary to them and uh at any given moment 430 00:18:30,266 --> 00:18:33,966 them and uh at any given moment and um I would say uh saying 431 00:18:33,966 --> 00:18:36,266 and um I would say uh saying that there’s a you know there’s 432 00:18:36,266 --> 00:18:37,767 that there’s a you know there’s some deepness in this in this 433 00:18:37,767 --> 00:18:38,467 some deepness in this in this moment. In this movie, you 434 00:18:38,467 --> 00:18:39,467 moment. In this movie, you watched the rest of the movie 435 00:18:39,467 --> 00:18:40,667 watched the rest of the movie If you don’t know the story cuz 436 00:18:40,667 --> 00:18:43,300 If you don’t know the story cuz it’s quite good. Not only 437 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:44,700 it’s quite good. Not only because of George Clooney, but 438 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,766 because of George Clooney, but it’s um it’s uh also the 439 00:18:47,766 --> 00:18:50,201 it’s um it’s uh also the necessity of some countries and 440 00:18:50,201 --> 00:18:54,367 necessity of some countries and our debate here shifted from uh 441 00:18:54,367 --> 00:18:56,834 our debate here shifted from uh from the amnesia that many 442 00:18:56,834 --> 00:18:58,400 from the amnesia that many people had about the 443 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,700 people had about the geopolitics of situations like 444 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,799 geopolitics of situations like um the war in Georgia in 2008 445 00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:05,900 um the war in Georgia in 2008 uh between Russia and Georgia 446 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:08,833 uh between Russia and Georgia uh the invention of Russia and 447 00:19:08,833 --> 00:19:10,867 uh the invention of Russia and Ukrainian 2014, and also what 448 00:19:10,867 --> 00:19:14,201 Ukrainian 2014, and also what was happening. The World Trade 449 00:19:14,201 --> 00:19:16,767 was happening. The World Trade Organization after 911 when uh 450 00:19:16,767 --> 00:19:18,299 Organization after 911 when uh when China became part of it 451 00:19:18,299 --> 00:19:22,533 when China became part of it and when the American focus in 452 00:19:22,533 --> 00:19:24,767 and when the American focus in international relations went 453 00:19:24,767 --> 00:19:27,233 international relations went from internal policy to the 454 00:19:27,233 --> 00:19:28,699 from internal policy to the global perspective, uh but the 455 00:19:28,699 --> 00:19:29,533 global perspective, uh but the only focus on the Middle East 456 00:19:29,533 --> 00:19:31,734 only focus on the Middle East most of the scientists most of 457 00:19:31,734 --> 00:19:34,200 most of the scientists most of the people uh I know we’re 458 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,733 the people uh I know we’re focused most young Middle East 459 00:19:36,733 --> 00:19:38,334 focused most young Middle East matters up until the crisis the 460 00:19:38,334 --> 00:19:40,933 matters up until the crisis the financial crisis and I would 461 00:19:40,933 --> 00:19:42,667 financial crisis and I would say that this is one of the 462 00:19:42,667 --> 00:19:44,900 say that this is one of the focuses that brought us to the 463 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,033 focuses that brought us to the moment that we have here uh 464 00:19:47,033 --> 00:19:49,534 moment that we have here uh which. The presidency of Donald 465 00:19:49,534 --> 00:19:51,400 which. The presidency of Donald Trump and then the discussions 466 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,500 Trump and then the discussions that we have come in very fast 467 00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:55,900 that we have come in very fast um because it was like you we 468 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:57,633 um because it was like you we all remember the economy stupid 469 00:19:57,633 --> 00:20:00,900 all remember the economy stupid when Bill Clinton was uh uh 470 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:02,667 when Bill Clinton was uh uh wanted to uh take the office of 471 00:20:02,667 --> 00:20:04,699 wanted to uh take the office of the president of the United 472 00:20:04,699 --> 00:20:05,500 the president of the United States. Why did he do that 473 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,667 States. Why did he do that because the United States were 474 00:20:07,667 --> 00:20:10,201 because the United States were in the recession and why uh uh 475 00:20:10,201 --> 00:20:13,334 in the recession and why uh uh and while uh George W Bush 476 00:20:13,334 --> 00:20:15,766 and while uh George W Bush senior was fighting a war and 477 00:20:15,766 --> 00:20:17,500 senior was fighting a war and was very much interested in the 478 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:19,066 was very much interested in the global order back then and 479 00:20:19,066 --> 00:20:21,199 global order back then and what? A domestic matters that 480 00:20:21,199 --> 00:20:23,500 what? A domestic matters that we’re more important to the 481 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:25,000 we’re more important to the electorate to the people of the 482 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,801 electorate to the people of the United States and um I would 483 00:20:28,801 --> 00:20:31,900 United States and um I would say that after 2016, we see 484 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:34,433 say that after 2016, we see that very rapidly change. It’s 485 00:20:34,433 --> 00:20:36,699 that very rapidly change. It’s not only with with the one 486 00:20:36,699 --> 00:20:40,866 not only with with the one president and one um one party, 487 00:20:40,866 --> 00:20:43,266 president and one um one party, but it is with the focus of 488 00:20:43,266 --> 00:20:44,799 but it is with the focus of many politicians in the in the 489 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:47,201 many politicians in the in the United States, and I wouldn’t 490 00:20:47,201 --> 00:20:49,733 United States, and I wouldn’t say that um there’s a 491 00:20:49,733 --> 00:20:50,999 say that um there’s a possibility of a shift 492 00:20:50,999 --> 00:20:53,400 possibility of a shift happening but. That’s probably 493 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,333 happening but. That’s probably in the next uh next question, 494 00:20:56,333 --> 00:21:00,167 in the next uh next question, but what I would say is that uh 495 00:21:00,167 --> 00:21:02,633 but what I would say is that uh this discussion uh also has a 496 00:21:02,633 --> 00:21:05,201 this discussion uh also has a very economic economic 497 00:21:05,201 --> 00:21:06,966 very economic economic dimension. Uh if who away 498 00:21:06,966 --> 00:21:08,400 dimension. Uh if who away managed to become an imperial 499 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,967 managed to become an imperial force of the Chinese army, 500 00:21:11,967 --> 00:21:13,433 force of the Chinese army, economic economy and managed to 501 00:21:13,433 --> 00:21:17,201 economic economy and managed to be one of the most popular uh 502 00:21:17,201 --> 00:21:19,533 be one of the most popular uh companies uh investing in five 503 00:21:19,533 --> 00:21:21,799 companies uh investing in five G technology um which now. 504 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,400 G technology um which now. United States warn us against 505 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,234 United States warn us against using uh and as the Pentagon 506 00:21:28,234 --> 00:21:29,799 using uh and as the Pentagon said um in the new report 507 00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:32,467 said um in the new report published yesterday that the 508 00:21:32,467 --> 00:21:35,467 published yesterday that the United States is now surpassed 509 00:21:35,467 --> 00:21:38,699 United States is now surpassed by the Chinese technological 510 00:21:38,699 --> 00:21:41,733 by the Chinese technological advancement in some fields um 511 00:21:41,733 --> 00:21:43,300 advancement in some fields um uh being a warning to the 512 00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:45,133 uh being a warning to the Department of State has to 513 00:21:45,133 --> 00:21:48,234 Department of State has to invest more in military 514 00:21:48,234 --> 00:21:51,033 invest more in military equipment. um this all uh tells 515 00:21:51,033 --> 00:21:57,200 equipment. um this all uh tells a very. Uh I would say um not 516 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,700 a very. Uh I would say um not goods good scenario of the 517 00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:00,500 goods good scenario of the fruits or the tens of the 518 00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,699 fruits or the tens of the beginning of the twentieth 519 00:22:02,699 --> 00:22:04,466 beginning of the twentieth century, where we have a very 520 00:22:04,466 --> 00:22:07,834 century, where we have a very uh very problematic moment in 521 00:22:07,834 --> 00:22:12,167 uh very problematic moment in time and um possible non polar 522 00:22:12,167 --> 00:22:14,000 time and um possible non polar world where the European Union 523 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,734 world where the European Union has to uh workout um the 524 00:22:19,734 --> 00:22:21,333 has to uh workout um the business environment with 525 00:22:21,333 --> 00:22:24,600 business environment with China. China and also. And 526 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,767 China. China and also. And strategic matters with the 527 00:22:25,767 --> 00:22:31,133 strategic matters with the United States uh which uh in 528 00:22:31,133 --> 00:22:35,067 United States uh which uh in some ways as uh Graham Allison 529 00:22:35,067 --> 00:22:36,867 some ways as uh Graham Allison wrote in a book destined for 530 00:22:36,867 --> 00:22:39,266 wrote in a book destined for war uh he called the term that 531 00:22:39,266 --> 00:22:43,400 war uh he called the term that the uh to uh to see it as a 532 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,200 the uh to uh to see it as a trap um and he also warned that 533 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,801 trap um and he also warned that the river uh of a dominant firm 534 00:22:48,801 --> 00:22:52,333 the river uh of a dominant firm results in war and uh I’m just 535 00:22:52,333 --> 00:22:54,399 results in war and uh I’m just gonna give and with a quote 536 00:22:54,399 --> 00:22:57,667 gonna give and with a quote from another man who. Also wage 537 00:22:57,667 --> 00:23:01,633 from another man who. Also wage the war, and he said it was 538 00:23:01,633 --> 00:23:03,400 the war, and he said it was Troy that hypocritical said 539 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:04,767 Troy that hypocritical said that if you may not be 540 00:23:04,767 --> 00:23:07,233 that if you may not be interested in war, but war may 541 00:23:07,233 --> 00:23:10,234 interested in war, but war may be interested in uh in you um 542 00:23:10,234 --> 00:23:12,334 be interested in uh in you um uh hopefully it’s just a trade 543 00:23:12,334 --> 00:23:14,166 uh hopefully it’s just a trade war. That’s that’s what I want 544 00:23:14,166 --> 00:23:17,800 war. That’s that’s what I want to say Okay. Thank you um um 545 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,766 to say Okay. Thank you um um that’s a good question to to uh 546 00:23:20,766 --> 00:23:22,201 that’s a good question to to uh you know uh what are we 547 00:23:22,201 --> 00:23:24,533 you know uh what are we speaking of? I mean many things 548 00:23:24,533 --> 00:23:27,734 speaking of? I mean many things we’re speaking. Uh related to 549 00:23:27,734 --> 00:23:30,434 we’re speaking. Uh related to the stance of the Trump 550 00:23:30,434 --> 00:23:31,533 the stance of the Trump administration and I think for 551 00:23:31,533 --> 00:23:33,967 administration and I think for Europeans a major question is 552 00:23:33,967 --> 00:23:35,467 Europeans a major question is what is attributable to the 553 00:23:35,467 --> 00:23:37,633 what is attributable to the stands particular world view of 554 00:23:37,633 --> 00:23:41,033 stands particular world view of the Trump. 555 00:24:04,234 --> 00:24:06,801 Uh because uh I think no one 556 00:24:06,801 --> 00:24:08,733 Uh because uh I think no one really is but great women think 557 00:24:08,733 --> 00:24:11,201 really is but great women think alike. so I’m actually going to 558 00:24:11,201 --> 00:24:13,066 alike. so I’m actually going to under uh underline a number of 559 00:24:13,066 --> 00:24:15,234 under uh underline a number of the things uh that Natalie 560 00:24:15,234 --> 00:24:18,699 the things uh that Natalie said, uh first just this 561 00:24:18,699 --> 00:24:20,700 said, uh first just this overall idea of geopolitics and 562 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:23,533 overall idea of geopolitics and GO economics and how they 563 00:24:23,533 --> 00:24:27,300 GO economics and how they interact uh over time and we 564 00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:28,633 interact uh over time and we have as Natalie said The Cold 565 00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:31,634 have as Natalie said The Cold war was geopolitics the 1990s 566 00:24:31,634 --> 00:24:34,467 war was geopolitics the 1990s uh more. Economics and I 567 00:24:34,467 --> 00:24:37,133 uh more. Economics and I remember less scaled the former 568 00:24:37,133 --> 00:24:39,300 remember less scaled the former chair of the council on Foreign 569 00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:40,933 chair of the council on Foreign Relations, really coining GE 570 00:24:40,933 --> 00:24:43,400 Relations, really coining GE Economics and pushing GGO 571 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,234 Economics and pushing GGO economics, but I will say that 572 00:24:46,234 --> 00:24:50,733 economics, but I will say that over history economic stands to 573 00:24:50,733 --> 00:24:52,933 over history economic stands to uh line up behind politics when 574 00:24:52,933 --> 00:24:55,334 uh line up behind politics when there’s a major threat and the 575 00:24:55,334 --> 00:24:56,966 there’s a major threat and the Norman angel, uh example, is a 576 00:24:56,966 --> 00:24:59,500 Norman angel, uh example, is a good one but much more recently 577 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:00,267 good one but much more recently when it was a question of 578 00:25:00,267 --> 00:25:02,300 when it was a question of whether the EU would impose. 579 00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:04,700 whether the EU would impose. Sanctions on Ukraine and 580 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:05,933 Sanctions on Ukraine and everyone said Oh, no, the 581 00:25:05,933 --> 00:25:07,299 everyone said Oh, no, the Germans will not do that. The 582 00:25:07,299 --> 00:25:08,833 Germans will not do that. The Germans have huge business 583 00:25:08,833 --> 00:25:10,334 Germans have huge business interests in Ukraine. They’re 584 00:25:10,334 --> 00:25:11,134 interests in Ukraine. They’re not going to do that and I 585 00:25:11,134 --> 00:25:12,766 not going to do that and I remember telling many CEOs that 586 00:25:12,766 --> 00:25:15,333 remember telling many CEOs that I spoke to nope when the chips 587 00:25:15,333 --> 00:25:16,000 I spoke to nope when the chips are down and there’s a 588 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,500 are down and there’s a geopolitical threat. Economics 589 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:20,799 geopolitical threat. Economics falls into line and you are 590 00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:23,201 falls into line and you are seeing that uh here in ways 591 00:25:23,201 --> 00:25:25,833 seeing that uh here in ways that are hurting many American 592 00:25:25,833 --> 00:25:27,400 that are hurting many American companies, but the once it is 593 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,534 companies, but the once it is framed as an existential 594 00:25:30,534 --> 00:25:32,867 framed as an existential geopolitical threat uh. 595 00:25:32,867 --> 00:25:34,334 geopolitical threat uh. Economics essentially takes a 596 00:25:34,334 --> 00:25:37,367 Economics essentially takes a backseat so II start with that 597 00:25:37,367 --> 00:25:39,967 backseat so II start with that proposition and right now, you 598 00:25:39,967 --> 00:25:42,533 proposition and right now, you know there’s uh an embrace of a 599 00:25:42,533 --> 00:25:44,699 know there’s uh an embrace of a return to great power 600 00:25:44,699 --> 00:25:46,533 return to great power competition. That’s Trump’s 601 00:25:46,533 --> 00:25:48,934 competition. That’s Trump’s national security strategy, but 602 00:25:48,934 --> 00:25:50,367 national security strategy, but there are many Democrats who 603 00:25:50,367 --> 00:25:53,067 there are many Democrats who are very comfortable in that 604 00:25:53,067 --> 00:25:54,367 are very comfortable in that world, and indeed I was at the 605 00:25:54,367 --> 00:25:57,234 world, and indeed I was at the Brussels Forum back in 2014 606 00:25:57,234 --> 00:26:00,133 Brussels Forum back in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea uh 607 00:26:00,133 --> 00:26:02,866 when Russia invaded Crimea uh and was. In Ukraine and there 608 00:26:02,866 --> 00:26:04,600 and was. In Ukraine and there were lots of Nato people who 609 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,534 were lots of Nato people who are effectively like this is 610 00:26:06,534 --> 00:26:08,800 are effectively like this is the world. we know, we know you 611 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,066 the world. we know, we know you know this is our world. Uh it 612 00:26:11,066 --> 00:26:13,266 know this is our world. Uh it is a world in which we can uh 613 00:26:13,266 --> 00:26:14,799 is a world in which we can uh marshal resources and turn to 614 00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:16,767 marshal resources and turn to our allies and it’s 615 00:26:16,767 --> 00:26:18,767 our allies and it’s fundamentally more military uh 616 00:26:18,767 --> 00:26:20,899 fundamentally more military uh and so this notion that we’re 617 00:26:20,899 --> 00:26:23,834 and so this notion that we’re back in a world of great power 618 00:26:23,834 --> 00:26:25,301 back in a world of great power competition. I think uh which 619 00:26:25,301 --> 00:26:27,899 competition. I think uh which is really moving back from the 620 00:26:27,899 --> 00:26:29,434 is really moving back from the late twentieth century. more 621 00:26:29,434 --> 00:26:33,167 late twentieth century. more back to the. Century but it’s 622 00:26:33,167 --> 00:26:35,034 back to the. Century but it’s being embraced by lots of 623 00:26:35,034 --> 00:26:36,266 being embraced by lots of people in lots of 624 00:26:36,266 --> 00:26:38,534 people in lots of establishments, including in 625 00:26:38,534 --> 00:26:40,334 establishments, including in China because it’s a much more 626 00:26:40,334 --> 00:26:42,367 China because it’s a much more comfortable world, even if it’s 627 00:26:42,367 --> 00:26:43,866 comfortable world, even if it’s a more dangerous one. So that 628 00:26:43,866 --> 00:26:46,367 a more dangerous one. So that is my first point about the way 629 00:26:46,367 --> 00:26:49,567 is my first point about the way you connect the two for people 630 00:26:49,567 --> 00:26:51,800 you connect the two for people like us people uh uh the 631 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:52,367 like us people uh uh the political scientists in the 632 00:26:52,367 --> 00:26:54,333 political scientists in the room or the foreign policy 633 00:26:54,333 --> 00:26:55,767 room or the foreign policy experts uh for those of us who 634 00:26:55,767 --> 00:26:57,266 experts uh for those of us who are really formed in the in the 635 00:26:57,266 --> 00:26:58,867 are really formed in the in the twentieth century. This is a 636 00:26:58,867 --> 00:27:00,300 twentieth century. This is a comfortable world and one that 637 00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:02,533 comfortable world and one that that people will return to uh 638 00:27:02,533 --> 00:27:03,267 that people will return to uh you know you just have to focus 639 00:27:03,267 --> 00:27:04,766 you know you just have to focus if you’re in the United States 640 00:27:04,766 --> 00:27:08,667 if you’re in the United States on Russia uh on. On Iran uh and 641 00:27:08,667 --> 00:27:11,933 on Russia uh on. On Iran uh and then one of our allies .1. .1, 642 00:27:11,933 --> 00:27:15,800 then one of our allies .1. .1, I think the much bigger issue 643 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,734 I think the much bigger issue now is the is the the existence 644 00:27:18,734 --> 00:27:21,500 now is the is the the existence of genuinely global existential 645 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,801 of genuinely global existential threats. Obviously the pandemic 646 00:27:23,801 --> 00:27:26,367 threats. Obviously the pandemic we’re living through now but 647 00:27:26,367 --> 00:27:27,834 we’re living through now but climate change is every bit as 648 00:27:27,834 --> 00:27:30,833 climate change is every bit as big and those two are deeply 649 00:27:30,833 --> 00:27:31,933 big and those two are deeply interconnected if the people on 650 00:27:31,933 --> 00:27:34,267 interconnected if the people on this panel, we’re ten to 20 651 00:27:34,267 --> 00:27:35,899 this panel, we’re ten to 20 years younger and that may not 652 00:27:35,899 --> 00:27:38,467 years younger and that may not be true so much, Alexander and 653 00:27:38,467 --> 00:27:39,433 be true so much, Alexander and Natalie, but it is the rest of 654 00:27:39,433 --> 00:27:42,434 Natalie, but it is the rest of us. um we would be. We will be 655 00:27:42,434 --> 00:27:44,899 us. um we would be. We will be talking more about what you 656 00:27:44,899 --> 00:27:46,700 talking more about what you might call Civics in other 657 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:47,899 might call Civics in other words that the young people in 658 00:27:47,899 --> 00:27:49,333 words that the young people in this country and by that, I 659 00:27:49,333 --> 00:27:50,699 this country and by that, I mean the forty-eight the 660 00:27:50,699 --> 00:27:52,833 mean the forty-eight the millennials effectively and the 661 00:27:52,833 --> 00:27:55,799 millennials effectively and the people after them are much more 662 00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:58,767 people after them are much more conscious of being extremely 663 00:27:58,767 --> 00:28:00,833 conscious of being extremely interconnected. They are also 664 00:28:00,833 --> 00:28:02,333 interconnected. They are also the digital generation they 665 00:28:02,333 --> 00:28:03,899 the digital generation they grew up being connected in 666 00:28:03,899 --> 00:28:05,433 grew up being connected in fact, the teenagers sort of 667 00:28:05,433 --> 00:28:07,800 fact, the teenagers sort of move it like a starfish as a 668 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:08,800 move it like a starfish as a body and as they they 669 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,701 body and as they they coordinate their activities. On 670 00:28:11,701 --> 00:28:14,267 coordinate their activities. On on Facebook, or Instagram or 671 00:28:14,267 --> 00:28:16,000 on Facebook, or Instagram or whatever else and they’re the 672 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,367 whatever else and they’re the people who actually even argue 673 00:28:18,367 --> 00:28:20,100 people who actually even argue about open borders, which is 674 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:22,533 about open borders, which is not likely to happen but the 675 00:28:22,533 --> 00:28:23,899 not likely to happen but the way I’ve I’ve conceptualized 676 00:28:23,899 --> 00:28:26,400 way I’ve I’ve conceptualized the world, you can think of the 677 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,333 the world, you can think of the chessboard world the politics 678 00:28:28,333 --> 00:28:31,934 chessboard world the politics and the web of economics, but 679 00:28:31,934 --> 00:28:35,333 and the web of economics, but also of society of the social 680 00:28:35,333 --> 00:28:37,333 also of society of the social connections and the bigger 681 00:28:37,333 --> 00:28:38,667 connections and the bigger tension, and I think we will 682 00:28:38,667 --> 00:28:40,000 tension, and I think we will see this if it’s not at this 683 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,167 see this if it’s not at this election, then it’s the next 684 00:28:41,167 --> 00:28:42,833 election, then it’s the next election and we’ll see it in 685 00:28:42,833 --> 00:28:44,634 election and we’ll see it in Europe as well as in the United 686 00:28:44,634 --> 00:28:48,299 Europe as well as in the United States and in parts of Asia. A 687 00:28:48,299 --> 00:28:49,666 States and in parts of Asia. A generation coming that thinks 688 00:28:49,666 --> 00:28:52,301 generation coming that thinks we are playing geopolitics and 689 00:28:52,301 --> 00:28:54,667 we are playing geopolitics and Geo economics while we are 690 00:28:54,667 --> 00:28:57,700 Geo economics while we are missing those enormous global 691 00:28:57,700 --> 00:28:59,800 missing those enormous global threats and yes, it’s true that 692 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,667 threats and yes, it’s true that Kobe has reinforced geopolitics 693 00:29:02,667 --> 00:29:03,966 Kobe has reinforced geopolitics because of connecting 694 00:29:03,966 --> 00:29:05,600 because of connecting geopolitics and Geo economics, 695 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:06,800 geopolitics and Geo economics, but the other way to think 696 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,234 but the other way to think about it is the only way to get 697 00:29:08,234 --> 00:29:10,833 about it is the only way to get out of it are global networks 698 00:29:10,833 --> 00:29:13,300 out of it are global networks of scientists of doctors of 699 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,966 of scientists of doctors of CEO’s of civil society. How on 700 00:29:15,966 --> 00:29:17,299 CEO’s of civil society. How on earth are we gonna get this a 701 00:29:17,299 --> 00:29:19,467 earth are we gonna get this a vaccine and a vaccine actually 702 00:29:19,467 --> 00:29:20,467 vaccine and a vaccine actually distributed in a way that 703 00:29:20,467 --> 00:29:22,867 distributed in a way that affects. Of our health because 704 00:29:22,867 --> 00:29:24,767 affects. Of our health because we cannot reopen the global 705 00:29:24,767 --> 00:29:25,367 we cannot reopen the global economy unless we have a 706 00:29:25,367 --> 00:29:27,867 economy unless we have a vaccine pretty much everywhere 707 00:29:27,867 --> 00:29:30,367 vaccine pretty much everywhere so my second point would be 708 00:29:30,367 --> 00:29:31,967 so my second point would be really you can call it. global 709 00:29:31,967 --> 00:29:33,767 really you can call it. global problem solving global civics, 710 00:29:33,767 --> 00:29:37,399 problem solving global civics, but it’s the way in which 711 00:29:37,399 --> 00:29:40,800 but it’s the way in which global problems require 712 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,767 global problems require genuinely network solutions 713 00:29:42,767 --> 00:29:45,400 genuinely network solutions that are that far that go far 714 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,767 that are that far that go far beyond governments Last point 715 00:29:47,767 --> 00:29:50,733 beyond governments Last point is um to this issue of how the 716 00:29:50,733 --> 00:29:53,366 is um to this issue of how the two that particularly with 717 00:29:53,366 --> 00:29:54,500 two that particularly with regard to the United States, 718 00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:59,733 regard to the United States, which is in a network world. 719 00:29:59,733 --> 00:29:59,800 which is in a network world. Are danger 720 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:00,933 Are dangerous and the United 721 00:30:00,933 --> 00:30:02,800 Are dangerous and the United States is wildly overusing them 722 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,900 States is wildly overusing them for Zakaria pointed this out in 723 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:06,767 for Zakaria pointed this out in his most recent column, but but 724 00:30:06,767 --> 00:30:10,433 his most recent column, but but if you if you go back even just 725 00:30:10,433 --> 00:30:13,400 if you if you go back even just a decade, China has a network 726 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,400 a decade, China has a network strategy. The belt and Road is 727 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,834 strategy. The belt and Road is not just geopolitics. It’s 728 00:30:16,834 --> 00:30:18,667 not just geopolitics. It’s really building relationships 729 00:30:18,667 --> 00:30:20,800 really building relationships on the ground in many 730 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,866 on the ground in many countries. The EU has a network 731 00:30:22,866 --> 00:30:24,801 countries. The EU has a network strategy and Natalie knows all 732 00:30:24,801 --> 00:30:26,434 strategy and Natalie knows all about it. Unfortunately, it was 733 00:30:26,434 --> 00:30:28,000 about it. Unfortunately, it was issued just as Brexit happened, 734 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,366 issued just as Brexit happened, but it was a very smart 735 00:30:30,366 --> 00:30:32,367 but it was a very smart strategy about. To build 736 00:30:32,367 --> 00:30:33,966 strategy about. To build networks and a connected world, 737 00:30:33,966 --> 00:30:36,266 networks and a connected world, United States does not and the 738 00:30:36,266 --> 00:30:37,766 United States does not and the United States is not thinking 739 00:30:37,766 --> 00:30:40,334 United States is not thinking in terms of connections, it is 740 00:30:40,334 --> 00:30:41,767 in terms of connections, it is assuming that our political 741 00:30:41,767 --> 00:30:43,534 assuming that our political power and our economic power 742 00:30:43,534 --> 00:30:45,967 power and our economic power can be progressively and what 743 00:30:45,967 --> 00:30:48,600 can be progressively and what will happen if we continue is 744 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,800 will happen if we continue is that people will then start 745 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,399 that people will then start bypassing the bypass our banks 746 00:30:52,399 --> 00:30:53,734 bypassing the bypass our banks they’ll bypass our stock 747 00:30:53,734 --> 00:30:55,267 they’ll bypass our stock exchanges and they will make it 748 00:30:55,267 --> 00:30:58,967 exchanges and they will make it increasingly difficult to use 749 00:30:58,967 --> 00:30:59,967 increasingly difficult to use our economic power in this 750 00:30:59,967 --> 00:31:02,399 our economic power in this spirit of geopolitical. And I 751 00:31:02,399 --> 00:31:03,966 spirit of geopolitical. And I think I’ll leave it there. 752 00:31:03,966 --> 00:31:05,333 think I’ll leave it there. Thank you. thank you for adding 753 00:31:05,333 --> 00:31:06,800 Thank you. thank you for adding those two new dimensions the 754 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,367 those two new dimensions the one of which was in the back of 755 00:31:09,367 --> 00:31:11,966 one of which was in the back of our mind of a global problems 756 00:31:11,966 --> 00:31:13,867 our mind of a global problems and the uh the attitude of the 757 00:31:13,867 --> 00:31:15,834 and the uh the attitude of the younger generation with them, 758 00:31:15,834 --> 00:31:17,700 younger generation with them, but also the contrast between 759 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:19,933 but also the contrast between the China and the US and the 760 00:31:19,933 --> 00:31:22,500 the China and the US and the other hand in terms of thinking 761 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:23,867 other hand in terms of thinking about uh about network, which 762 00:31:23,867 --> 00:31:26,634 about uh about network, which is which is very strange in a 763 00:31:26,634 --> 00:31:29,100 is which is very strange in a way because the US was the very 764 00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,200 way because the US was the very first to think can be you know 765 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,833 first to think can be you know uh it. Of the post world system 766 00:31:34,833 --> 00:31:36,199 uh it. Of the post world system in terms of network in terms of 767 00:31:36,199 --> 00:31:38,767 in terms of network in terms of creating a system of the 768 00:31:38,767 --> 00:31:39,967 creating a system of the dependence that would 769 00:31:39,967 --> 00:31:42,800 dependence that would strengthen the the the US 770 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,000 strengthen the the the US leadership politically to the 771 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,700 leadership politically to the fact that uh I think in sort of 772 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:47,767 fact that uh I think in sort of nineteenth century terms and 773 00:31:47,767 --> 00:31:49,800 nineteenth century terms and that in 21st century terms is 774 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,233 that in 21st century terms is striking Alexander Alex uh u 775 00:31:53,233 --> 00:31:55,800 striking Alexander Alex uh u turn. So, as I said, you did 776 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,233 turn. So, as I said, you did everything so you you’re 777 00:31:57,233 --> 00:31:59,600 everything so you you’re perfect one to give us a broad 778 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:00,733 perfect one to give us a broad computing view for this part of 779 00:32:00,733 --> 00:32:04,800 computing view for this part of the discussion. So uh thanks a 780 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,033 the discussion. So uh thanks a lot and thanks for having me 781 00:32:06,033 --> 00:32:08,333 lot and thanks for having me and and I do apologize for my 782 00:32:08,333 --> 00:32:09,767 and and I do apologize for my lack of a bookcase credibility. 783 00:32:09,767 --> 00:32:11,600 lack of a bookcase credibility. I have just moved to Florence. 784 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,933 I have just moved to Florence. This is my new office. My books 785 00:32:13,933 --> 00:32:15,467 This is my new office. My books have not arrived. so that’s why 786 00:32:15,467 --> 00:32:18,000 have not arrived. so that’s why the shelves are empty. Um I 787 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,266 the shelves are empty. Um I think it’s been a fascinating 788 00:32:19,266 --> 00:32:21,233 think it’s been a fascinating debate so far and I can agree 789 00:32:21,233 --> 00:32:21,833 debate so far and I can agree with most of the stuff that’s 790 00:32:21,833 --> 00:32:22,833 with most of the stuff that’s come out of it and I’ll try to 791 00:32:22,833 --> 00:32:25,966 come out of it and I’ll try to get my 2¢ worth um from both an 792 00:32:25,966 --> 00:32:27,466 get my 2¢ worth um from both an analytical on behalf of 793 00:32:27,466 --> 00:32:29,800 analytical on behalf of practical perspective. Uh the 794 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,100 practical perspective. Uh the first one is I was reminded 795 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:32,267 first one is I was reminded when I was listening to 796 00:32:32,267 --> 00:32:33,966 when I was listening to dominick’s uh excellent 797 00:32:33,966 --> 00:32:35,900 dominick’s uh excellent presentation that we. Being a 798 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,500 presentation that we. Being a kind of funny beings in a 799 00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:38,799 kind of funny beings in a sense, we have a tendency to 800 00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:41,199 sense, we have a tendency to over rationalize the past, so 801 00:32:41,199 --> 00:32:43,701 over rationalize the past, so we look for examples from the 802 00:32:43,701 --> 00:32:44,567 we look for examples from the past thinking that we can 803 00:32:44,567 --> 00:32:47,034 past thinking that we can answer them uh in the present. 804 00:32:47,034 --> 00:32:48,200 answer them uh in the present. Secondly, we have a tendency to 805 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,367 Secondly, we have a tendency to over dramatize the president, 806 00:32:50,367 --> 00:32:52,334 over dramatize the president, so we think that you know it is 807 00:32:52,334 --> 00:32:54,933 so we think that you know it is an unprecedented event uh which 808 00:32:54,933 --> 00:32:56,000 an unprecedented event uh which could possibly destroy the 809 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,467 could possibly destroy the world and will never get out of 810 00:32:57,467 --> 00:32:58,933 world and will never get out of this and this will be shifting 811 00:32:58,933 --> 00:33:01,266 this and this will be shifting the tectonic plates only to 812 00:33:01,266 --> 00:33:02,967 the tectonic plates only to come back to it after 10 years 813 00:33:02,967 --> 00:33:04,267 come back to it after 10 years and try to rationalize what 814 00:33:04,267 --> 00:33:05,200 and try to rationalize what happened because at the end of 815 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,967 happened because at the end of the day I. I’m all with those 816 00:33:07,967 --> 00:33:09,233 the day I. I’m all with those people who are saying this is 817 00:33:09,233 --> 00:33:12,733 people who are saying this is not an ideological issue that 818 00:33:12,733 --> 00:33:14,234 not an ideological issue that this is a politically neutral 819 00:33:14,234 --> 00:33:15,967 this is a politically neutral issue. uh as a matter of fact, 820 00:33:15,967 --> 00:33:19,334 issue. uh as a matter of fact, it’s only about how well a 821 00:33:19,334 --> 00:33:19,967 it’s only about how well a certain government deals with 822 00:33:19,967 --> 00:33:22,233 certain government deals with it uh and then finally we have 823 00:33:22,233 --> 00:33:24,699 it uh and then finally we have a tendency to underestimate the 824 00:33:24,699 --> 00:33:26,334 a tendency to underestimate the future so we don’t sort of know 825 00:33:26,334 --> 00:33:28,801 future so we don’t sort of know what lyrics uh behind the 826 00:33:28,801 --> 00:33:31,266 what lyrics uh behind the corner uh but that’s why I’m 827 00:33:31,266 --> 00:33:32,867 corner uh but that’s why I’m precisely fascinated about uh 828 00:33:32,867 --> 00:33:34,700 precisely fascinated about uh this whole debate about whether 829 00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:41,300 this whole debate about whether we’re looking. Geopolitics uh 830 00:33:51,267 --> 00:33:54,200 oconomowoc today is complete 831 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,600 oconomowoc today is complete Hebrew to them. They have 832 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,800 Hebrew to them. They have absolutely no clue and they’re 833 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,400 absolutely no clue and they’re looking at me and saying that 834 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,767 looking at me and saying that I’m not interested in ideology. 835 00:34:00,767 --> 00:34:02,267 I’m not interested in ideology. I’m interested in climate. I’m 836 00:34:02,267 --> 00:34:03,933 I’m interested in climate. I’m interested in the networks that 837 00:34:03,933 --> 00:34:06,467 interested in the networks that Anne-Marie talked about. I’m 838 00:34:06,467 --> 00:34:08,166 Anne-Marie talked about. I’m interested in globalization, 839 00:34:08,166 --> 00:34:09,467 interested in globalization, you know what’s all of this 840 00:34:09,467 --> 00:34:10,933 you know what’s all of this stuff that these politicians 841 00:34:10,933 --> 00:34:12,866 stuff that these politicians are talking about having said 842 00:34:12,866 --> 00:34:15,799 are talking about having said that I think the landscape for 843 00:34:15,799 --> 00:34:17,434 that I think the landscape for us international relations if I 844 00:34:17,434 --> 00:34:18,734 us international relations if I may elevate myself to that 845 00:34:18,734 --> 00:34:21,633 may elevate myself to that state uh is to understand that 846 00:34:21,633 --> 00:34:24,000 state uh is to understand that I think geopolitics has become 847 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,467 I think geopolitics has become much more diverse than what it 848 00:34:25,467 --> 00:34:27,967 much more diverse than what it used to be whether it’s coming 849 00:34:27,967 --> 00:34:29,367 used to be whether it’s coming back to what we used to have as 850 00:34:29,367 --> 00:34:31,767 back to what we used to have as Natalie said, or whether it’s 851 00:34:31,767 --> 00:34:33,300 Natalie said, or whether it’s something new, I really don’t 852 00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:36,300 something new, I really don’t know, but my first point is. 853 00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:38,000 know, but my first point is. That I think this is actually 854 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,167 That I think this is actually in a strange kind of a way 855 00:34:40,167 --> 00:34:42,000 in a strange kind of a way slightly uncomfortable for the 856 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,500 slightly uncomfortable for the European Union. Why do I say 857 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:45,867 European Union. Why do I say that the reason I say that is 858 00:34:45,867 --> 00:34:48,266 that the reason I say that is that the EU has often been 859 00:34:48,266 --> 00:34:49,633 that the EU has often been branded and defined as a soft 860 00:34:49,633 --> 00:34:52,467 branded and defined as a soft power, which basically uses 861 00:34:52,467 --> 00:34:54,000 power, which basically uses economic instruments they could 862 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,267 economic instruments they could be sanctions. They could be 863 00:34:56,267 --> 00:34:57,467 be sanctions. They could be trade instruments so they could 864 00:34:57,467 --> 00:34:59,467 trade instruments so they could be regulatory instruments and 865 00:34:59,467 --> 00:35:00,867 be regulatory instruments and we’ve sort of lived in this 866 00:35:00,867 --> 00:35:03,266 we’ve sort of lived in this world and we’ve enjoyed well 867 00:35:03,266 --> 00:35:04,833 world and we’ve enjoyed well now. this stuff is becoming 868 00:35:04,833 --> 00:35:06,899 now. this stuff is becoming real. It’s becoming the real 869 00:35:06,899 --> 00:35:07,967 real. It’s becoming the real geopolitical tool. so it’s not 870 00:35:07,967 --> 00:35:11,367 geopolitical tool. so it’s not so so much anymore about. 871 00:35:11,367 --> 00:35:13,733 so so much anymore about. Security and tanks and military 872 00:35:13,733 --> 00:35:15,900 Security and tanks and military um uh power uh defense power. 873 00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:17,100 um uh power uh defense power. It’s more about the economic 874 00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:18,366 It’s more about the economic power and this is when the 875 00:35:18,366 --> 00:35:19,634 power and this is when the European Union needs to start 876 00:35:19,634 --> 00:35:20,967 European Union needs to start to put it’s money where it’s 877 00:35:20,967 --> 00:35:23,199 to put it’s money where it’s mouth is uh and and sort of act 878 00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:26,167 mouth is uh and and sort of act as a geopolitical player uh as 879 00:35:26,167 --> 00:35:29,333 as a geopolitical player uh as as well. um so I think you know 880 00:35:29,333 --> 00:35:31,267 as well. um so I think you know it’s gonna be more about the 881 00:35:31,267 --> 00:35:32,667 it’s gonna be more about the international political 882 00:35:32,667 --> 00:35:34,666 international political economy, information technology 883 00:35:34,666 --> 00:35:35,233 economy, information technology and the interesting thing of 884 00:35:35,233 --> 00:35:37,599 and the interesting thing of course, is that the whole line 885 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:39,034 course, is that the whole line between war and peace is not 886 00:35:39,034 --> 00:35:42,299 between war and peace is not quite. Uh I’m economics is 887 00:35:42,299 --> 00:35:44,867 quite. Uh I’m economics is involved in it uh information 888 00:35:44,867 --> 00:35:47,500 involved in it uh information uh wars are involved in it Uh 889 00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:49,467 uh wars are involved in it Uh these types of issues are are 890 00:35:49,467 --> 00:35:51,199 these types of issues are are new and that’s why uh I would 891 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:53,299 new and that’s why uh I would argue that the implications of 892 00:35:53,299 --> 00:35:55,734 argue that the implications of this whole new situation the 893 00:35:55,734 --> 00:35:57,201 this whole new situation the movement from geopolitics to 894 00:35:57,201 --> 00:35:59,899 movement from geopolitics to Geo Economics or Geo Civics. Uh 895 00:35:59,899 --> 00:36:03,533 Geo Economics or Geo Civics. Uh it’s it’s two-fold. number one 896 00:36:03,533 --> 00:36:05,567 it’s it’s two-fold. number one is that tech giants become 897 00:36:05,567 --> 00:36:07,400 is that tech giants become global players in an 898 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,133 global players in an interesting kind of a way. uh 899 00:36:08,133 --> 00:36:11,267 interesting kind of a way. uh you know we can’t deny. Anymore 900 00:36:11,267 --> 00:36:13,299 you know we can’t deny. Anymore they become somehow involved in 901 00:36:13,299 --> 00:36:15,000 they become somehow involved in the geopolitical Geo Economic 902 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,634 the geopolitical Geo Economic and Geo game, so they are 903 00:36:17,634 --> 00:36:19,300 and Geo game, so they are really strong non state actors 904 00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:21,933 really strong non state actors uh if you will uh and secondly, 905 00:36:21,933 --> 00:36:24,600 uh if you will uh and secondly, I think we are starting to see 906 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,434 I think we are starting to see more and more state 907 00:36:25,434 --> 00:36:27,333 more and more state intervention whether this is 908 00:36:27,333 --> 00:36:29,967 intervention whether this is the last sort of fight for our 909 00:36:29,967 --> 00:36:32,267 the last sort of fight for our state control or not, I really 910 00:36:32,267 --> 00:36:33,967 state control or not, I really don’t know but if you look at 911 00:36:33,967 --> 00:36:37,733 don’t know but if you look at the world as we saw it posts uh 912 00:36:37,733 --> 00:36:39,233 the world as we saw it posts uh Cold war uh it was very much a 913 00:36:39,233 --> 00:36:41,200 Cold war uh it was very much a shift from state to market and 914 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,700 shift from state to market and then with. Perhaps with Lehman 915 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:46,600 then with. Perhaps with Lehman Brothers uh and and certainly 916 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,899 Brothers uh and and certainly now with we’ve seen a shift 917 00:36:48,899 --> 00:36:51,534 now with we’ve seen a shift from market towards state and 918 00:36:51,534 --> 00:36:52,867 from market towards state and this pendulum, I think is gonna 919 00:36:52,867 --> 00:36:55,467 this pendulum, I think is gonna be very interesting to see uh 920 00:36:55,467 --> 00:36:58,334 be very interesting to see uh I’m optimistic actually uh and 921 00:36:58,334 --> 00:36:59,867 I’m optimistic actually uh and I’m looking at it from a purely 922 00:36:59,867 --> 00:37:01,933 I’m looking at it from a purely selfish European perspective. I 923 00:37:01,933 --> 00:37:03,467 selfish European perspective. I think this is a wonderful 924 00:37:03,467 --> 00:37:05,767 think this is a wonderful opportunity for the European 925 00:37:05,767 --> 00:37:07,633 opportunity for the European Union to stamp it’s authority 926 00:37:07,633 --> 00:37:13,767 Union to stamp it’s authority uh in economic Geo uh or. The 927 00:37:13,767 --> 00:37:14,667 uh in economic Geo uh or. The regulatory framework, whether 928 00:37:14,667 --> 00:37:16,300 regulatory framework, whether it’ll be able to do that or 929 00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:17,967 it’ll be able to do that or not, I really don’t know but I 930 00:37:17,967 --> 00:37:20,333 not, I really don’t know but I do have some policy 931 00:37:20,333 --> 00:37:21,067 do have some policy recommendations to stand, which 932 00:37:21,067 --> 00:37:22,500 recommendations to stand, which is a wonderful to give when you 933 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:24,467 is a wonderful to give when you sit on the academic side of the 934 00:37:24,467 --> 00:37:28,899 sit on the academic side of the fence. Thanks a lot uh BP 935 00:37:28,899 --> 00:37:30,667 fence. Thanks a lot uh BP before we move to the second 936 00:37:30,667 --> 00:37:33,733 before we move to the second part of the discussion, there’s 937 00:37:33,733 --> 00:37:34,367 part of the discussion, there’s something striking which you 938 00:37:34,367 --> 00:37:37,066 something striking which you you, you said. I mean there’s 939 00:37:37,066 --> 00:37:39,467 you, you said. I mean there’s sort of two views. One view is 940 00:37:39,467 --> 00:37:41,734 sort of two views. One view is we back essentially to the 941 00:37:41,734 --> 00:37:43,333 we back essentially to the nineteenth century um to 942 00:37:43,333 --> 00:37:45,967 nineteenth century um to everything falls into line uh 943 00:37:45,967 --> 00:37:49,767 everything falls into line uh when there’s a power rivalry um 944 00:37:49,767 --> 00:37:51,800 when there’s a power rivalry um economy the economy falls into 945 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,300 economy the economy falls into line, but you know and Maui uh 946 00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:56,934 line, but you know and Maui uh I mean the civic movements Also 947 00:37:56,934 --> 00:37:59,734 I mean the civic movements Also you had the socialist 948 00:37:59,734 --> 00:38:00,434 you had the socialist international and you have all 949 00:38:00,434 --> 00:38:03,400 international and you have all that before what do I want? And 950 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,600 that before what do I want? And everything fell into line with 951 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,200 everything fell into line with the with the confrontation. So 952 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,100 the with the confrontation. So one view is that the the logic 953 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:10,267 one view is that the the logic of the confrontation that 954 00:38:10,267 --> 00:38:11,800 of the confrontation that everything falls into line, 955 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,734 everything falls into line, including the increasing the 956 00:38:13,734 --> 00:38:15,967 including the increasing the giants that’s back to Angel, 957 00:38:15,967 --> 00:38:17,034 giants that’s back to Angel, and the other view is that 958 00:38:17,034 --> 00:38:19,600 and the other view is that there’s something new in what 959 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,733 there’s something new in what we are uh we’re living these 960 00:38:21,733 --> 00:38:23,733 we are uh we’re living these days that the global problems 961 00:38:23,733 --> 00:38:25,801 days that the global problems uh the existence of global 962 00:38:25,801 --> 00:38:27,833 uh the existence of global civil society is really a 963 00:38:27,833 --> 00:38:29,634 civil society is really a different force we have to 964 00:38:29,634 --> 00:38:31,967 different force we have to reckon with uh sort of. quick 965 00:38:31,967 --> 00:38:36,801 reckon with uh sort of. quick view. Debate From whoever wants 966 00:38:36,801 --> 00:38:41,600 view. Debate From whoever wants to take the floor. 967 00:38:42,666 --> 00:38:45,734 Since I’ve introduced the the 968 00:38:45,734 --> 00:38:47,467 Since I’ve introduced the the Geo Point and the and the 969 00:38:47,467 --> 00:38:49,667 Geo Point and the and the social movements, I think it’s 970 00:38:49,667 --> 00:38:52,234 social movements, I think it’s a very good question and we do 971 00:38:52,234 --> 00:38:55,333 a very good question and we do actually to Alex’s point we 972 00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:56,467 actually to Alex’s point we overestimate uh you know the 973 00:38:56,467 --> 00:38:59,234 overestimate uh you know the the newness of technology 974 00:38:59,234 --> 00:39:00,334 the newness of technology because of course you could go 975 00:39:00,334 --> 00:39:01,467 because of course you could go back and say well, you have the 976 00:39:01,467 --> 00:39:02,867 back and say well, you have the Telegraph, which was 977 00:39:02,867 --> 00:39:05,234 Telegraph, which was revolutionary in the early 978 00:39:05,234 --> 00:39:07,266 revolutionary in the early twentieth century and so uh to 979 00:39:07,266 --> 00:39:09,533 twentieth century and so uh to say well now we are digitally 980 00:39:09,533 --> 00:39:10,666 say well now we are digitally connected visually connected 981 00:39:10,666 --> 00:39:14,700 connected visually connected well we. We we we we humanity 982 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:16,533 well we. We we we we humanity has become steadily more 983 00:39:16,533 --> 00:39:18,000 has become steadily more connected through technology 984 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,467 connected through technology and this is the difference in 985 00:39:19,467 --> 00:39:22,633 and this is the difference in degree of degree rather than uh 986 00:39:22,633 --> 00:39:27,466 degree of degree rather than uh of I do. The other way to think 987 00:39:27,466 --> 00:39:31,500 of I do. The other way to think about it, though really is 988 00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:35,133 about it, though really is young people again who have 989 00:39:35,133 --> 00:39:36,700 young people again who have started from connection in 990 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:40,299 started from connection in other words that they’re mortal 991 00:39:40,299 --> 00:39:42,799 other words that they’re mortal sense of existence is as 992 00:39:42,799 --> 00:39:44,234 sense of existence is as connected to others uh as 993 00:39:44,234 --> 00:39:45,733 connected to others uh as opposed to a world in which 994 00:39:45,733 --> 00:39:48,167 opposed to a world in which we’ve grown up much more as 995 00:39:48,167 --> 00:39:49,867 we’ve grown up much more as individuals as individual 996 00:39:49,867 --> 00:39:50,900 individuals as individual countries, you know and then we 997 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,234 countries, you know and then we we reach out and connect to 998 00:39:53,234 --> 00:39:54,699 we reach out and connect to others but II generally do 999 00:39:54,699 --> 00:40:00,233 others but II generally do think there is AA. Awareness of 1000 00:40:00,233 --> 00:40:03,334 think there is AA. Awareness of one planet in a way that I 1001 00:40:03,334 --> 00:40:05,933 one planet in a way that I certainly never had uh growing 1002 00:40:05,933 --> 00:40:08,233 certainly never had uh growing up that I would really did see 1003 00:40:08,233 --> 00:40:11,466 up that I would really did see the world much more uh 1004 00:40:11,466 --> 00:40:13,866 the world much more uh nationally as an American as uh 1005 00:40:13,866 --> 00:40:16,234 nationally as an American as uh and as individuals within the 1006 00:40:16,234 --> 00:40:19,233 and as individuals within the United States and um you know 1007 00:40:19,233 --> 00:40:21,299 United States and um you know again that that I think you 1008 00:40:21,299 --> 00:40:23,234 again that that I think you post the question very well uh 1009 00:40:23,234 --> 00:40:25,301 post the question very well uh the other piece though I will 1010 00:40:25,301 --> 00:40:26,734 the other piece though I will say, and this is a particularly 1011 00:40:26,734 --> 00:40:27,967 say, and this is a particularly American, Is you know we’re 1012 00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:32,400 American, Is you know we’re about. Become a quality country 1013 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:33,834 about. Become a quality country uh so that whites will not have 1014 00:40:33,834 --> 00:40:36,701 uh so that whites will not have a majority and the other part 1015 00:40:36,701 --> 00:40:38,433 a majority and the other part of the the all the Americans 1016 00:40:38,433 --> 00:40:41,000 of the the all the Americans who come from many different 1017 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,233 who come from many different cultures. They also in barrack, 1018 00:40:44,233 --> 00:40:45,733 cultures. They also in barrack, Obama was the first to you know 1019 00:40:45,733 --> 00:40:47,400 Obama was the first to you know raise in Indonesia, Kenyan 1020 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,767 raise in Indonesia, Kenyan father. He did not see the 1021 00:40:49,767 --> 00:40:52,333 father. He did not see the politics the same way at all uh 1022 00:40:52,333 --> 00:40:55,233 politics the same way at all uh than many uh who had pursued 1023 00:40:55,233 --> 00:40:57,466 than many uh who had pursued him the lord to that sense of 1024 00:40:57,466 --> 00:41:00,000 him the lord to that sense of global. Also comes from the 1025 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:06,667 global. Also comes from the fact reflecting much more. Can 1026 00:41:06,667 --> 00:41:10,866 fact reflecting much more. Can I can I follow on what I just 1027 00:41:10,866 --> 00:41:14,800 I can I follow on what I just said um I think this division 1028 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,300 said um I think this division between generation uh 1029 00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:19,834 between generation uh absolutely real uh and 1030 00:41:19,834 --> 00:41:22,867 absolutely real uh and sometimes uh it frightens me uh 1031 00:41:22,867 --> 00:41:25,633 sometimes uh it frightens me uh when young people say uh what 1032 00:41:25,633 --> 00:41:28,401 when young people say uh what is at stake today and it’s 1033 00:41:28,401 --> 00:41:30,700 is at stake today and it’s survival of the planet and they 1034 00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:32,434 survival of the planet and they are right to do so uh they 1035 00:41:32,434 --> 00:41:37,334 are right to do so uh they could add well. Should I die uh 1036 00:41:37,334 --> 00:41:40,299 could add well. Should I die uh for democracy uh for human 1037 00:41:40,299 --> 00:41:42,767 for democracy uh for human rights? uh when what is at 1038 00:41:42,767 --> 00:41:44,567 rights? uh when what is at stake? Uh I eat a survival of 1039 00:41:44,567 --> 00:41:46,766 stake? Uh I eat a survival of the planet. He’s so much more 1040 00:41:46,766 --> 00:41:48,300 the planet. He’s so much more important. I mean all the 1041 00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:52,234 important. I mean all the debates uh look Betty secondary 1042 00:41:52,234 --> 00:41:54,733 debates uh look Betty secondary in our eyes and this is where 1043 00:41:54,733 --> 00:42:01,333 in our eyes and this is where uh I think that we uh overlook 1044 00:42:01,333 --> 00:42:03,967 uh I think that we uh overlook history at our risk and this is 1045 00:42:03,967 --> 00:42:07,134 history at our risk and this is particularly. 1046 00:42:36,167 --> 00:42:39,234 Move on There’s very quickly, I 1047 00:42:39,234 --> 00:42:40,099 Move on There’s very quickly, I mean I think in a sense you 1048 00:42:40,099 --> 00:42:41,567 mean I think in a sense you know so far we’ve been talking 1049 00:42:41,567 --> 00:42:42,667 know so far we’ve been talking about the next is between 1050 00:42:42,667 --> 00:42:43,800 about the next is between international politics and 1051 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,467 international politics and economics, and I think here we 1052 00:42:45,467 --> 00:42:47,734 economics, and I think here we kinda bringing in a different 1053 00:42:47,734 --> 00:42:49,200 kinda bringing in a different which or rather related, which 1054 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,933 which or rather related, which adds to the complexity, which 1055 00:42:50,933 --> 00:42:52,400 adds to the complexity, which is really that between sort of 1056 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,066 is really that between sort of uh you know traditional 1057 00:42:55,066 --> 00:42:56,134 uh you know traditional international relations and 1058 00:42:56,134 --> 00:42:57,833 international relations and relations between states and 1059 00:42:57,833 --> 00:42:59,801 relations between states and the major transnational 1060 00:42:59,801 --> 00:43:01,967 the major transnational challenges in fact, major 1061 00:43:01,967 --> 00:43:03,433 challenges in fact, major challenges facing the 1062 00:43:03,433 --> 00:43:04,534 challenges facing the twenty-first century are all 1063 00:43:04,534 --> 00:43:07,100 twenty-first century are all three translation. Revolve 1064 00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:09,400 three translation. Revolve around climate and demography, 1065 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,801 around climate and demography, and I think what we’re seeing 1066 00:43:10,801 --> 00:43:13,266 and I think what we’re seeing now is on all three of those uh 1067 00:43:13,266 --> 00:43:15,633 now is on all three of those uh sort of challenges traditional 1068 00:43:15,633 --> 00:43:17,667 sort of challenges traditional the traditional sort of 1069 00:43:17,667 --> 00:43:21,399 the traditional sort of interstate world is using those 1070 00:43:21,399 --> 00:43:24,167 interstate world is using those three domains as instruments at 1071 00:43:24,167 --> 00:43:26,166 three domains as instruments at times of coercion basically uh 1072 00:43:26,166 --> 00:43:27,533 times of coercion basically uh but then obviously there was 1073 00:43:27,533 --> 00:43:29,733 but then obviously there was the scope for cooperation in 1074 00:43:29,733 --> 00:43:31,300 the scope for cooperation in the traditional inter state 1075 00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:32,466 the traditional inter state relations, despite the fact 1076 00:43:32,466 --> 00:43:34,267 relations, despite the fact that all three are basically 1077 00:43:34,267 --> 00:43:36,800 that all three are basically transnational in nature. 1078 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,734 transnational in nature. Absolutely that the theme of 1079 00:43:38,734 --> 00:43:40,800 Absolutely that the theme of sort of the the weapon of 1080 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,334 sort of the the weapon of networks that are you know 1081 00:43:44,334 --> 00:43:46,699 networks that are you know increasingly in principle uh 1082 00:43:46,699 --> 00:43:48,267 increasingly in principle uh ways of interconnecting people 1083 00:43:48,267 --> 00:43:49,867 ways of interconnecting people a bit it can be turned into an 1084 00:43:49,867 --> 00:43:52,299 a bit it can be turned into an instrument of power. Okay uh 1085 00:43:52,299 --> 00:43:53,767 instrument of power. Okay uh before we move to this, the 1086 00:43:53,767 --> 00:43:55,266 before we move to this, the second part of the discussion, 1087 00:43:55,266 --> 00:43:57,699 second part of the discussion, we have a poll among the the 1088 00:43:57,699 --> 00:44:00,266 we have a poll among the the those who are listening to this 1089 00:44:00,266 --> 00:44:05,600 those who are listening to this panel uh perhaps be shown. 1090 00:44:06,234 --> 00:44:10,234 Ask a questions uh about. the 1091 00:44:10,234 --> 00:44:14,467 Ask a questions uh about. the situation and about the uh the 1092 00:44:14,467 --> 00:44:16,767 situation and about the uh the you sort of precise question 1093 00:44:16,767 --> 00:44:19,000 you sort of precise question about as the uh the US uh 1094 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,333 about as the uh the US uh actually and the potential 1095 00:44:21,333 --> 00:44:24,567 actually and the potential consequences of the US 1096 00:44:24,567 --> 00:44:30,933 consequences of the US election. There any okay. here 1097 00:44:30,933 --> 00:44:35,700 election. There any okay. here is it. I can’t see very well 1098 00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:38,566 is it. I can’t see very well it’s fundamentally the same if 1099 00:44:38,566 --> 00:44:42,767 it’s fundamentally the same if Joe Biden wins yes. so so so 1100 00:44:42,767 --> 00:44:46,234 Joe Biden wins yes. so so so can you can you show us better 1101 00:44:46,234 --> 00:44:51,800 can you can you show us better the result on on on screen? 1102 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,834 the result on on on screen? Okay Good. Oh, it’s it’s being 1103 00:44:55,834 --> 00:44:58,867 Okay Good. Oh, it’s it’s being it’s being asked now right, I 1104 00:44:58,867 --> 00:45:01,399 it’s being asked now right, I thought it would be as before 1105 00:45:01,399 --> 00:45:02,933 thought it would be as before so the question is if if Joe 1106 00:45:02,933 --> 00:45:04,800 so the question is if if Joe Biden is elected president with 1107 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,533 Biden is elected president with the Geo political rivalry 1108 00:45:06,533 --> 00:45:07,966 the Geo political rivalry between the US and China remain 1109 00:45:07,966 --> 00:45:09,800 between the US and China remain fundamental, it’s the same 1110 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,100 fundamental, it’s the same soften or. 1111 00:45:13,467 --> 00:45:16,367 Um and so in real time, I don’t 1112 00:45:16,367 --> 00:45:18,466 Um and so in real time, I don’t know how many people have 1113 00:45:18,466 --> 00:45:19,967 know how many people have answered not that many actually 1114 00:45:19,967 --> 00:45:22,401 answered not that many actually twenty-four twenty-four. That’s 1115 00:45:22,401 --> 00:45:24,133 twenty-four twenty-four. That’s not a very representative 1116 00:45:24,133 --> 00:45:25,467 not a very representative sample. It seemed at least 1117 00:45:25,467 --> 00:45:28,499 sample. It seemed at least among those twenty-five. now 1118 00:45:28,499 --> 00:45:30,700 among those twenty-five. now the majority of view that it 1119 00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:32,400 the majority of view that it will remain fundamentally the 1120 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,600 will remain fundamentally the same I can we move to the next 1121 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,900 same I can we move to the next question. 1122 00:45:45,333 --> 00:45:47,866 And the next question is about 1123 00:45:47,866 --> 00:45:52,500 And the next question is about uh the second uh theme uh what 1124 00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:54,800 uh the second uh theme uh what do you should do in this 1125 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,000 do you should do in this context? so the question was 1126 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,200 context? so the question was framed in the following way you 1127 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,767 framed in the following way you know, should the you rethink 1128 00:46:02,767 --> 00:46:05,299 know, should the you rethink it. It’s policies for trade for 1129 00:46:05,299 --> 00:46:07,033 it. It’s policies for trade for competition for the external 1130 00:46:07,033 --> 00:46:13,534 competition for the external role of the euro and for uh. 1131 00:46:13,534 --> 00:46:17,734 role of the euro and for uh. For none of them so um the 1132 00:46:17,734 --> 00:46:21,567 For none of them so um the answer is should be regarded as 1133 00:46:21,567 --> 00:46:24,333 answer is should be regarded as yes uh in this new context, the 1134 00:46:24,333 --> 00:46:28,367 yes uh in this new context, the you should adapt change the 1135 00:46:28,367 --> 00:46:32,200 you should adapt change the following uh policies. 1136 00:46:33,333 --> 00:46:36,267 So, let’s wait a little bit uh 1137 00:46:36,267 --> 00:46:37,967 So, let’s wait a little bit uh one question uh to the poll 1138 00:46:37,967 --> 00:46:40,434 one question uh to the poll because you know we have a 1139 00:46:40,434 --> 00:46:41,834 because you know we have a debate on geopolitics and 1140 00:46:41,834 --> 00:46:44,234 debate on geopolitics and economics and the answers are 1141 00:46:44,234 --> 00:46:46,834 economics and the answers are on connected to economics and 1142 00:46:46,834 --> 00:46:48,234 on connected to economics and there could be some solutions. 1143 00:46:48,234 --> 00:46:51,667 there could be some solutions. We are geopolitical absolutely, 1144 00:46:51,667 --> 00:46:54,801 We are geopolitical absolutely, but you know I mean we we had 1145 00:46:54,801 --> 00:46:56,533 but you know I mean we we had brutal after all that so people 1146 00:46:56,533 --> 00:46:57,967 brutal after all that so people are interested in the 1147 00:46:57,967 --> 00:47:00,367 are interested in the consequences for some of the 1148 00:47:00,367 --> 00:47:03,067 consequences for some of the economic policy and we spoke of 1149 00:47:03,067 --> 00:47:05,733 economic policy and we spoke of the interaction in. This 1150 00:47:05,733 --> 00:47:06,767 the interaction in. This direction into sort of 1151 00:47:06,767 --> 00:47:09,867 direction into sort of geopolitical changes impacting 1152 00:47:09,867 --> 00:47:11,866 geopolitical changes impacting the the the economic system and 1153 00:47:11,866 --> 00:47:15,700 the the the economic system and the economy grows so the answer 1154 00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:19,733 the economy grows so the answer seems to be yes for competition 1155 00:47:19,733 --> 00:47:22,634 seems to be yes for competition for the international of the 1156 00:47:22,634 --> 00:47:25,334 for the international of the euro uh at the bit less for 1157 00:47:25,334 --> 00:47:27,967 euro uh at the bit less for foreign investment and for 1158 00:47:27,967 --> 00:47:31,700 foreign investment and for trade right uh but the ball 1159 00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:37,566 trade right uh but the ball seems to be uh large but. 1160 00:48:14,701 --> 00:48:17,967 For the uh you how you should 1161 00:48:17,967 --> 00:48:19,433 For the uh you how you should prepare for the aftermath of 1162 00:48:19,433 --> 00:48:22,767 prepare for the aftermath of the US election and what should 1163 00:48:22,767 --> 00:48:25,333 the US election and what should change in the way uh it’s a 1164 00:48:25,333 --> 00:48:28,400 change in the way uh it’s a number of policies, specially 1165 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,767 number of policies, specially economic policies. Uh I thought 1166 00:48:30,767 --> 00:48:31,699 economic policies. Uh I thought this time we would start with 1167 00:48:31,699 --> 00:48:35,700 this time we would start with that money. 1168 00:49:07,233 --> 00:49:08,733 Climate change first, there’s 1169 00:49:08,733 --> 00:49:11,733 Climate change first, there’s so many uh but in all the areas 1170 00:49:11,733 --> 00:49:14,199 so many uh but in all the areas that Natalie raised uh with 1171 00:49:14,199 --> 00:49:15,699 that Natalie raised uh with digital democracy, we need to 1172 00:49:15,699 --> 00:49:17,966 digital democracy, we need to cooperate with China in a 1173 00:49:17,966 --> 00:49:18,734 cooperate with China in a number of ways. So I think 1174 00:49:18,734 --> 00:49:20,967 number of ways. So I think you’ll see Joe Biden go back to 1175 00:49:20,967 --> 00:49:22,633 you’ll see Joe Biden go back to a kind of friend relationship 1176 00:49:22,633 --> 00:49:23,800 a kind of friend relationship where we’re rivals in some 1177 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,201 where we’re rivals in some areas, but we absolutely uh 1178 00:49:27,201 --> 00:49:29,766 areas, but we absolutely uh cooperate in others uh but the 1179 00:49:29,766 --> 00:49:33,034 cooperate in others uh but the EU uh the EU needs to continue 1180 00:49:33,034 --> 00:49:36,867 EU uh the EU needs to continue the process of making itself a 1181 00:49:36,867 --> 00:49:38,167 the process of making itself a genuine superpower my husband 1182 00:49:38,167 --> 00:49:39,934 genuine superpower my husband uh Andrew Marr always calls it 1183 00:49:39,934 --> 00:49:43,367 uh Andrew Marr always calls it the quiet superpower the. 1184 00:49:43,367 --> 00:49:46,200 the quiet superpower the. Superpower but never has it 1185 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,300 Superpower but never has it been more important to have a 1186 00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:51,766 been more important to have a major economic power, the 1187 00:49:51,766 --> 00:49:53,699 major economic power, the largest economy in the world 1188 00:49:53,699 --> 00:49:56,667 largest economy in the world still uh standing for a rules 1189 00:49:56,667 --> 00:49:59,367 still uh standing for a rules based order uh those rules 1190 00:49:59,367 --> 00:50:00,734 based order uh those rules probably need to evolve China 1191 00:50:00,734 --> 00:50:02,399 probably need to evolve China has taken advantage of them. 1192 00:50:02,399 --> 00:50:04,734 has taken advantage of them. Yes and both the EU and the 1193 00:50:04,734 --> 00:50:07,300 Yes and both the EU and the United States are getting 1194 00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:09,734 United States are getting tougher. uh but really the 1195 00:50:09,734 --> 00:50:13,333 tougher. uh but really the divide in the world is between. 1196 00:50:13,333 --> 00:50:15,133 divide in the world is between. And economies that are 1197 00:50:15,133 --> 00:50:17,200 And economies that are relatively open but equally 1198 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,234 relatively open but equally importantly, digital spaces 1199 00:50:19,234 --> 00:50:21,267 importantly, digital spaces that are relatively open and 1200 00:50:21,267 --> 00:50:23,267 that are relatively open and borders that are relatively 1201 00:50:23,267 --> 00:50:24,701 borders that are relatively open and and I emphasize 1202 00:50:24,701 --> 00:50:26,200 open and and I emphasize relatively because it’s never 1203 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,033 relatively because it’s never complete and those countries uh 1204 00:50:29,033 --> 00:50:31,600 complete and those countries uh that are fundamentally close uh 1205 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,800 that are fundamentally close uh and whether they call 1206 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,433 and whether they call themselves democracies or 1207 00:50:34,433 --> 00:50:37,266 themselves democracies or dictatorships uh is really less 1208 00:50:37,266 --> 00:50:39,233 dictatorships uh is really less important alongside that you 1209 00:50:39,233 --> 00:50:41,267 important alongside that you can only be relatively open if 1210 00:50:41,267 --> 00:50:43,367 can only be relatively open if you do have a rules based order 1211 00:50:43,367 --> 00:50:45,300 you do have a rules based order if you have a degree of 1212 00:50:45,300 --> 00:50:46,167 if you have a degree of transparency, a degree of 1213 00:50:46,167 --> 00:50:49,334 transparency, a degree of participation and Is what the 1214 00:50:49,334 --> 00:50:52,767 participation and Is what the EU at it’s best stands for uh 1215 00:50:52,767 --> 00:50:55,433 EU at it’s best stands for uh but that requires a steady 1216 00:50:55,433 --> 00:50:57,667 but that requires a steady increase in it’s ability to act 1217 00:50:57,667 --> 00:51:00,766 increase in it’s ability to act as one it will never be a 1218 00:51:00,766 --> 00:51:02,234 as one it will never be a federal state. It will never be 1219 00:51:02,234 --> 00:51:03,967 federal state. It will never be as efficient as a federal 1220 00:51:03,967 --> 00:51:05,266 as efficient as a federal state, although the United 1221 00:51:05,266 --> 00:51:07,233 state, although the United States uh is becoming more 1222 00:51:07,233 --> 00:51:08,733 States uh is becoming more federalist than we are seeing 1223 00:51:08,733 --> 00:51:11,266 federalist than we are seeing our state’s uh increasingly 1224 00:51:11,266 --> 00:51:12,900 our state’s uh increasingly insist on their own power. If 1225 00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:15,267 insist on their own power. If you look at uh California, but 1226 00:51:15,267 --> 00:51:17,267 you look at uh California, but it’s never going to be 100%, 1227 00:51:17,267 --> 00:51:19,400 it’s never going to be 100%, not not even close to the 1228 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:20,500 not not even close to the efficiency of the unitary 1229 00:51:20,500 --> 00:51:23,933 efficiency of the unitary state. It is still the. Model 1230 00:51:23,933 --> 00:51:27,701 state. It is still the. Model for how you aggregate sovereign 1231 00:51:27,701 --> 00:51:34,133 for how you aggregate sovereign power in ways that only or. 1232 00:51:34,300 --> 00:51:35,733 Economically but critically 1233 00:51:35,733 --> 00:51:37,267 Economically but critically important politically and 1234 00:51:37,267 --> 00:51:39,200 important politically and socially, and you are seeing 1235 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,333 socially, and you are seeing once again, Africans and 1236 00:51:41,333 --> 00:51:43,166 once again, Africans and Southeast Asians emulating the 1237 00:51:43,166 --> 00:51:45,400 Southeast Asians emulating the EU because there’s really no 1238 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,767 EU because there’s really no other model out there so I 1239 00:51:46,767 --> 00:51:47,967 other model out there so I would say more of the same and 1240 00:51:47,967 --> 00:51:50,366 would say more of the same and maybe not having Britain will 1241 00:51:50,366 --> 00:51:51,967 maybe not having Britain will make it easier in some ways uh 1242 00:51:51,967 --> 00:51:54,467 make it easier in some ways uh but you need to push full steam 1243 00:51:54,467 --> 00:51:56,000 but you need to push full steam ahead on all the ways in which 1244 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,567 ahead on all the ways in which you can become stronger and 1245 00:51:58,567 --> 00:52:01,033 you can become stronger and more unified economically and 1246 00:52:01,033 --> 00:52:03,800 more unified economically and politically. can you give one? 1247 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,733 politically. can you give one? Examples of what you mean by by 1248 00:52:06,733 --> 00:52:10,234 Examples of what you mean by by doing more or being more 1249 00:52:10,234 --> 00:52:12,533 doing more or being more effective so certainly on the 1250 00:52:12,533 --> 00:52:14,600 effective so certainly on the on the economic side, I think 1251 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,000 on the economic side, I think the move uh closer toward a 1252 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,467 the move uh closer toward a fiscal union, a banking union 1253 00:52:18,467 --> 00:52:20,267 fiscal union, a banking union uh the moves that are in train 1254 00:52:20,267 --> 00:52:23,667 uh the moves that are in train uh and with the with issuing uh 1255 00:52:23,667 --> 00:52:26,667 uh and with the with issuing uh your wide securities is is very 1256 00:52:26,667 --> 00:52:28,266 your wide securities is is very important uh and and has to 1257 00:52:28,266 --> 00:52:31,567 important uh and and has to continue you’re has to be the 1258 00:52:31,567 --> 00:52:35,033 continue you’re has to be the big. A prize in a way between 1259 00:52:35,033 --> 00:52:37,267 big. A prize in a way between the United States and China and 1260 00:52:37,267 --> 00:52:38,934 the United States and China and you see both the United States 1261 00:52:38,934 --> 00:52:41,400 you see both the United States and China uh resisting that 1262 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,200 and China uh resisting that trying to divide in various 1263 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,734 trying to divide in various ways uh and or trying to get on 1264 00:52:45,734 --> 00:52:48,233 ways uh and or trying to get on side, you know to the EU to be 1265 00:52:48,233 --> 00:52:49,600 side, you know to the EU to be fully on side and one way or 1266 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,066 fully on side and one way or the other or China really 1267 00:52:51,066 --> 00:52:53,201 the other or China really trying to divide Eastern and 1268 00:52:53,201 --> 00:52:54,867 trying to divide Eastern and central Europe uh from western 1269 00:52:54,867 --> 00:52:57,933 central Europe uh from western Europe so pushing ahead uh with 1270 00:52:57,933 --> 00:52:59,000 Europe so pushing ahead uh with economic measures, but the 1271 00:52:59,000 --> 00:52:59,966 economic measures, but the other thing that I again, I 1272 00:52:59,966 --> 00:53:02,766 other thing that I again, I think I think actually. Has 1273 00:53:02,766 --> 00:53:04,600 think I think actually. Has been moving in this direction 1274 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,767 been moving in this direction this idea on foreign policy 1275 00:53:06,767 --> 00:53:09,567 this idea on foreign policy that it you only really need 1276 00:53:09,567 --> 00:53:11,167 that it you only really need three or four countries who 1277 00:53:11,167 --> 00:53:13,266 three or four countries who really wanna do something and 1278 00:53:13,266 --> 00:53:14,900 really wanna do something and other countries who will not 1279 00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:17,200 other countries who will not block them. uh it to be 1280 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,700 block them. uh it to be powerful rather than thinking 1281 00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:20,500 powerful rather than thinking you have to get everybody 1282 00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:22,967 you have to get everybody agreed all the time the EU has 1283 00:53:22,967 --> 00:53:25,367 agreed all the time the EU has been most effective when those 1284 00:53:25,367 --> 00:53:26,833 been most effective when those countries that care the most 1285 00:53:26,833 --> 00:53:28,200 countries that care the most are given the ability to work 1286 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,467 are given the ability to work together to to work with the EU 1287 00:53:30,467 --> 00:53:31,900 together to to work with the EU traditional allies uh and not 1288 00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:35,167 traditional allies uh and not get blocked. Uh by other 1289 00:53:35,167 --> 00:53:36,733 get blocked. Uh by other European even if they’re not 1290 00:53:36,733 --> 00:53:38,234 European even if they’re not fully participating, okay, so 1291 00:53:38,234 --> 00:53:39,333 fully participating, okay, so you’ve been you know 1292 00:53:39,333 --> 00:53:41,767 you’ve been you know differentiated for policy, I 1293 00:53:41,767 --> 00:53:43,267 differentiated for policy, I mean the viable German foreign 1294 00:53:43,267 --> 00:53:45,700 mean the viable German foreign policy and unity economy policy 1295 00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:48,467 policy and unity economy policy period. What do you think? 1296 00:53:48,467 --> 00:53:49,667 period. What do you think? Perhaps you know, take one or 1297 00:53:49,667 --> 00:53:51,167 Perhaps you know, take one or two examples? Also in terms of 1298 00:53:51,167 --> 00:53:54,167 two examples? Also in terms of I don’t know trade or uh or 1299 00:53:54,167 --> 00:53:56,367 I don’t know trade or uh or investment, you know to tell us 1300 00:53:56,367 --> 00:53:57,900 investment, you know to tell us how you think you should react. 1301 00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:00,600 how you think you should react. Okay So first of I agree with 1302 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,266 Okay So first of I agree with the poll. so I think that uh 1303 00:54:02,266 --> 00:54:04,767 the poll. so I think that uh during with the shift of uh of 1304 00:54:04,767 --> 00:54:06,667 during with the shift of uh of the Republican party and um 1305 00:54:06,667 --> 00:54:09,967 the Republican party and um also the the tensions that. And 1306 00:54:09,967 --> 00:54:12,667 also the the tensions that. And this is in the United States. 1307 00:54:12,667 --> 00:54:16,433 this is in the United States. It’s it’s very probable that 1308 00:54:16,433 --> 00:54:19,233 It’s it’s very probable that this relations China uh of the 1309 00:54:19,233 --> 00:54:20,900 this relations China uh of the United States could stay with 1310 00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:24,234 United States could stay with us for a longer period of time 1311 00:54:24,234 --> 00:54:29,801 us for a longer period of time and uh what I say is that um uh 1312 00:54:29,801 --> 00:54:31,600 and uh what I say is that um uh first off in the in the 1313 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,234 first off in the in the European Union. we we we see um 1314 00:54:35,234 --> 00:54:40,234 European Union. we we we see um some remarks or some policy um. 1315 00:54:40,234 --> 00:54:43,633 some remarks or some policy um. Options that are quite uh 1316 00:54:43,633 --> 00:54:45,333 Options that are quite uh disturb. from my point of view, 1317 00:54:45,333 --> 00:54:46,867 disturb. from my point of view, for example, was that the the 1318 00:54:46,867 --> 00:54:49,267 for example, was that the the interview that Emmanuel Macron 1319 00:54:49,267 --> 00:54:52,367 interview that Emmanuel Macron said that Nato is brain dead. 1320 00:54:52,367 --> 00:54:54,733 said that Nato is brain dead. uh as one of the you know 1321 00:54:54,733 --> 00:54:59,733 uh as one of the you know geopolitical um um issues of of 1322 00:54:59,733 --> 00:55:02,300 geopolitical um um issues of of of of central Europe. Uh I 1323 00:55:02,300 --> 00:55:04,000 of of central Europe. Uh I would say in this was this is 1324 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,967 would say in this was this is kind of like a disturbing point 1325 00:55:05,967 --> 00:55:09,934 kind of like a disturbing point to make uh. Like this, for 1326 00:55:09,934 --> 00:55:14,633 to make uh. Like this, for example and um but uh we’re 1327 00:55:14,633 --> 00:55:17,234 example and um but uh we’re talking about geopolitics and 1328 00:55:17,234 --> 00:55:20,200 talking about geopolitics and nobody even once, said dealers 1329 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,000 nobody even once, said dealers uh here uh talking about this 1330 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,000 uh here uh talking about this issue and uh I just want to 1331 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,734 issue and uh I just want to check in on that uh that um uh 1332 00:55:27,734 --> 00:55:29,233 check in on that uh that um uh you know it’s not the United 1333 00:55:29,233 --> 00:55:31,700 you know it’s not the United States flags that the Europeans 1334 00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:33,666 States flags that the Europeans use. it’s the European Union 1335 00:55:33,666 --> 00:55:35,200 use. it’s the European Union flags sometimes mostly. it’s 1336 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:36,299 flags sometimes mostly. it’s the flag that they don’t have 1337 00:55:36,299 --> 00:55:38,699 the flag that they don’t have actually so they have now the 1338 00:55:38,699 --> 00:55:41,600 actually so they have now the Soviet one um so this means 1339 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,267 Soviet one um so this means that uh for many people. The 1340 00:55:45,267 --> 00:55:47,767 that uh for many people. The European Union not only has the 1341 00:55:47,767 --> 00:55:49,700 European Union not only has the soft power so the culture 1342 00:55:49,700 --> 00:55:50,867 soft power so the culture advantage of being an 1343 00:55:50,867 --> 00:55:52,234 advantage of being an interesting nation, but also 1344 00:55:52,234 --> 00:55:53,767 interesting nation, but also sticky power. so this is kind 1345 00:55:53,767 --> 00:55:56,201 sticky power. so this is kind of described to international 1346 00:55:56,201 --> 00:55:58,799 of described to international um spear, which I’m not that 1347 00:55:58,799 --> 00:56:02,699 um spear, which I’m not that aware of but uh I read about it 1348 00:56:02,699 --> 00:56:05,533 aware of but uh I read about it in a something when we’re the 1349 00:56:05,533 --> 00:56:07,934 in a something when we’re the you know the point of reference 1350 00:56:07,934 --> 00:56:09,933 you know the point of reference for everybody and as European 1351 00:56:09,933 --> 00:56:12,167 for everybody and as European Union is a regulatory 1352 00:56:12,167 --> 00:56:13,900 Union is a regulatory superpower because we can 1353 00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:17,200 superpower because we can manage to impose some. On big 1354 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,266 manage to impose some. On big tech companies, which are then 1355 00:56:19,266 --> 00:56:21,200 tech companies, which are then used in the United States as a 1356 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,834 used in the United States as a as a manual basically, then in 1357 00:56:23,834 --> 00:56:25,467 as a manual basically, then in some spheres has with dealers 1358 00:56:25,467 --> 00:56:27,900 some spheres has with dealers and the elections and the upper 1359 00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:31,234 and the elections and the upper of the civil society uh there 1360 00:56:31,234 --> 00:56:33,900 of the civil society uh there uh being unanimous against uh 1361 00:56:33,900 --> 00:56:37,167 uh being unanimous against uh the outcome of the um of the 1362 00:56:37,167 --> 00:56:39,301 the outcome of the um of the election means that we can 1363 00:56:39,301 --> 00:56:42,234 election means that we can manage to be the force uh doing 1364 00:56:42,234 --> 00:56:43,733 manage to be the force uh doing something better uh for the 1365 00:56:43,733 --> 00:56:46,833 something better uh for the world and this is like. Of the 1366 00:56:46,833 --> 00:56:49,934 world and this is like. Of the same uh what we currently do, 1367 00:56:49,934 --> 00:56:53,699 same uh what we currently do, but it’s important to uh to be 1368 00:56:53,699 --> 00:56:56,201 but it’s important to uh to be uh the support that does uh 1369 00:56:56,201 --> 00:56:57,967 uh the support that does uh things like that for the 1370 00:56:57,967 --> 00:56:59,567 things like that for the citizens of Ukraine for the 1371 00:56:59,567 --> 00:57:01,900 citizens of Ukraine for the citizens of terrorists of those 1372 00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:03,433 citizens of terrorists of those countries, which are uh 1373 00:57:03,433 --> 00:57:05,733 countries, which are uh currently in a much more 1374 00:57:05,733 --> 00:57:07,333 currently in a much more circumstance than uh uh many 1375 00:57:07,333 --> 00:57:10,933 circumstance than uh uh many other countries um from you 1376 00:57:10,933 --> 00:57:13,733 other countries um from you know from the past of the block 1377 00:57:13,733 --> 00:57:15,600 know from the past of the block um and um I would say that this 1378 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,900 um and um I would say that this is one of the crucial issues 1379 00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:20,933 is one of the crucial issues and the second one. Um is to 1380 00:57:20,933 --> 00:57:24,300 and the second one. Um is to not forget uh there’s uh um uh 1381 00:57:24,300 --> 00:57:26,733 not forget uh there’s uh um uh Polish and also II got to know 1382 00:57:26,733 --> 00:57:29,733 Polish and also II got to know a Mexican proverb that uh we’re 1383 00:57:29,733 --> 00:57:32,734 a Mexican proverb that uh we’re both from the same clay um 1384 00:57:32,734 --> 00:57:35,300 both from the same clay um that’s uh meaning that uh you 1385 00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:37,733 that’s uh meaning that uh you know we we have many 1386 00:57:37,733 --> 00:57:39,066 know we we have many differences but we come from 1387 00:57:39,066 --> 00:57:40,799 differences but we come from the same background uh and with 1388 00:57:40,799 --> 00:57:43,334 the same background uh and with the United States uh we 1389 00:57:43,334 --> 00:57:45,766 the United States uh we probably need to cooperate on 1390 00:57:45,766 --> 00:57:51,066 probably need to cooperate on many um authoritarian threats. 1391 00:57:51,233 --> 00:57:53,966 Giving the next years that 1392 00:57:53,966 --> 00:57:56,200 Giving the next years that could be uh as I said before 1393 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:57,666 could be uh as I said before not only with the word that’s 1394 00:57:57,666 --> 00:58:00,299 not only with the word that’s only on a threat to the trade 1395 00:58:00,299 --> 00:58:01,833 only on a threat to the trade to you know to the technology 1396 00:58:01,833 --> 00:58:05,699 to you know to the technology that we use or the you know uh 1397 00:58:05,699 --> 00:58:08,166 that we use or the you know uh it could be something a bit 1398 00:58:08,166 --> 00:58:11,167 it could be something a bit worse. Uh if we’re in the 1399 00:58:11,167 --> 00:58:12,299 worse. Uh if we’re in the nineteenth century that we’re 1400 00:58:12,299 --> 00:58:13,934 nineteenth century that we’re still discussing because going 1401 00:58:13,934 --> 00:58:15,233 still discussing because going back to the nineteenth century, 1402 00:58:15,233 --> 00:58:17,866 back to the nineteenth century, Poland didn’t exist. so if 1403 00:58:17,866 --> 00:58:20,300 Poland didn’t exist. so if we’re back in. Century of a 1404 00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:23,200 we’re back in. Century of a discussion, then you know 1405 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,866 discussion, then you know what’s at stake here. 1406 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,333 Uh we’d be interesting to have 1407 00:59:03,333 --> 00:59:06,667 Uh we’d be interesting to have your views. 1408 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,933 Sure, uh that’s uh I’ll do it 1409 00:59:08,933 --> 00:59:10,467 Sure, uh that’s uh I’ll do it with two points. One is a 1410 00:59:10,467 --> 00:59:11,133 with two points. One is a general remark, and then I’ll 1411 00:59:11,133 --> 00:59:13,200 general remark, and then I’ll give five recommendations for 1412 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,000 give five recommendations for what the EU should do in this 1413 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,967 what the EU should do in this sphere of uh icons uh civics 1414 00:59:19,967 --> 00:59:21,500 sphere of uh icons uh civics whatever you wanna call it, but 1415 00:59:21,500 --> 00:59:22,800 whatever you wanna call it, but general observation I’ll be a 1416 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:24,834 general observation I’ll be a little bit provocative here 1417 00:59:24,834 --> 00:59:26,234 little bit provocative here now. my thesis is that we’re 1418 00:59:26,234 --> 00:59:30,201 now. my thesis is that we’re gonna three see the emergence 1419 00:59:30,201 --> 00:59:31,799 gonna three see the emergence or uh a struggle between three 1420 00:59:31,799 --> 00:59:33,433 or uh a struggle between three major powers uh in this century 1421 00:59:33,433 --> 00:59:36,234 major powers uh in this century and the three major powers of. 1422 00:59:36,234 --> 00:59:38,800 and the three major powers of. Uh the United States and the 1423 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,567 Uh the United States and the European Union in different 1424 00:59:40,567 --> 00:59:43,234 European Union in different kinds of ways and I think the 1425 00:59:43,234 --> 00:59:44,467 kinds of ways and I think the mega trend that we’re gonna see 1426 00:59:44,467 --> 00:59:47,234 mega trend that we’re gonna see whether a Biden is elected or 1427 00:59:47,234 --> 00:59:50,801 whether a Biden is elected or not it is a certain demise of 1428 00:59:50,801 --> 00:59:52,600 not it is a certain demise of American power American 1429 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,400 American power American polarity and American uh 1430 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,734 polarity and American uh Germany The United States will 1431 00:59:57,734 --> 01:00:01,867 Germany The United States will not have a similarly engaged in 1432 01:00:01,867 --> 01:00:03,233 not have a similarly engaged in interventionist policy. uh you 1433 01:00:03,233 --> 01:00:06,167 interventionist policy. uh you know in the century. I used to 1434 01:00:06,167 --> 01:00:08,400 know in the century. I used to have post World war two, so we 1435 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:09,767 have post World war two, so we might be approaching a 1436 01:00:09,767 --> 01:00:11,167 might be approaching a situation that we saw between 1437 01:00:11,167 --> 01:00:13,801 situation that we saw between the wars or before World war 1438 01:00:13,801 --> 01:00:15,533 the wars or before World war one uh with the United States, 1439 01:00:15,533 --> 01:00:17,233 one uh with the United States, and I think that has a couple 1440 01:00:17,233 --> 01:00:20,333 and I think that has a couple of ramifications the first time 1441 01:00:20,333 --> 01:00:22,233 of ramifications the first time and here’s the provocation. uh 1442 01:00:22,233 --> 01:00:24,234 and here’s the provocation. uh it’s not the European Union 1443 01:00:24,234 --> 01:00:26,299 it’s not the European Union should play ball and let me use 1444 01:00:26,299 --> 01:00:29,067 should play ball and let me use a term which I hate myself, but 1445 01:00:29,067 --> 01:00:30,400 a term which I hate myself, but we should see the Finland 1446 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,833 we should see the Finland sensation of the European Union 1447 01:00:32,833 --> 01:00:34,267 sensation of the European Union and by this, I mean that yes, 1448 01:00:34,267 --> 01:00:35,767 and by this, I mean that yes, we are made from the same play 1449 01:00:35,767 --> 01:00:38,201 we are made from the same play with the United States. Anne 1450 01:00:38,201 --> 01:00:39,699 with the United States. Anne Marie will notice this. I’m 1451 01:00:39,699 --> 01:00:41,167 Marie will notice this. I’m probably the strongest 1452 01:00:41,167 --> 01:00:42,800 probably the strongest transatlantic is you know north 1453 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,299 transatlantic is you know north of Brussels uh but I think you 1454 01:00:45,299 --> 01:00:46,600 of Brussels uh but I think you should play ball in the sense 1455 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,533 should play ball in the sense that if there’s a game play 75% 1456 01:00:49,533 --> 01:00:50,833 that if there’s a game play 75% with the United States of 1457 01:00:50,833 --> 01:00:54,333 with the United States of America and played 25% in 1458 01:00:54,333 --> 01:00:55,733 America and played 25% in China, this is a geopolitical 1459 01:00:55,733 --> 01:00:57,201 China, this is a geopolitical statement so you need to play 1460 01:00:57,201 --> 01:00:59,167 statement so you need to play the game because if there’s a 1461 01:00:59,167 --> 01:01:01,433 the game because if there’s a clear polarization between 1462 01:01:01,433 --> 01:01:02,900 clear polarization between China and the United States, 1463 01:01:02,900 --> 01:01:04,799 China and the United States, someone will have to play not 1464 01:01:04,799 --> 01:01:08,367 someone will have to play not the mediator, but you know. The 1465 01:01:08,367 --> 01:01:09,933 the mediator, but you know. The the sort of a back burner there 1466 01:01:09,933 --> 01:01:11,300 the sort of a back burner there in one way or another, and 1467 01:01:11,300 --> 01:01:12,934 in one way or another, and that’s why I think the European 1468 01:01:12,934 --> 01:01:17,667 that’s why I think the European Union should do to my yes sit 1469 01:01:17,667 --> 01:01:21,634 Union should do to my yes sit down uh this suppose that we 1470 01:01:21,634 --> 01:01:23,234 down uh this suppose that we remain in a in a world where 1471 01:01:23,234 --> 01:01:26,900 remain in a in a world where the I mean the discussion the 1472 01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:28,300 the I mean the discussion the debate is essentially about the 1473 01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:29,699 debate is essentially about the economy uh issues or I mean in 1474 01:01:29,699 --> 01:01:31,401 economy uh issues or I mean in a broad sense including 1475 01:01:31,401 --> 01:01:33,267 a broad sense including climate, for example, that you 1476 01:01:33,267 --> 01:01:36,367 climate, for example, that you do not go into this sort of 1477 01:01:36,367 --> 01:01:39,333 do not go into this sort of more sacred focus confrontation 1478 01:01:39,333 --> 01:01:40,933 more sacred focus confrontation in which case I think uh you 1479 01:01:40,933 --> 01:01:42,133 in which case I think uh you would most likely fall into 1480 01:01:42,133 --> 01:01:44,333 would most likely fall into line with the U. Yeah, of 1481 01:01:44,333 --> 01:01:46,634 line with the U. Yeah, of course, of course, but again, I 1482 01:01:46,634 --> 01:01:48,267 course, of course, but again, I think the thesis of this panel 1483 01:01:48,267 --> 01:01:51,333 think the thesis of this panel and my personal thesis as well 1484 01:01:51,333 --> 01:01:52,767 and my personal thesis as well that there will be a security 1485 01:01:52,767 --> 01:01:55,266 that there will be a security to political talk um and and 1486 01:01:55,266 --> 01:01:57,700 to political talk um and and how would I say certain 1487 01:01:57,700 --> 01:02:00,333 how would I say certain geopolitical match? but this 1488 01:02:00,333 --> 01:02:02,767 geopolitical match? but this will not turn into a 1489 01:02:02,767 --> 01:02:04,434 will not turn into a confrontation in the conflict. 1490 01:02:04,434 --> 01:02:05,900 confrontation in the conflict. So that’s why I agree with P 1491 01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:07,367 So that’s why I agree with P here when he said, you know 1492 01:02:07,367 --> 01:02:09,833 here when he said, you know rather trade wars. that’s 1493 01:02:09,833 --> 01:02:11,034 rather trade wars. that’s something else and if we go 1494 01:02:11,034 --> 01:02:12,300 something else and if we go into the world of trade wars, 1495 01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:15,034 into the world of trade wars, then Europe should play. Uh the 1496 01:02:15,034 --> 01:02:17,733 then Europe should play. Uh the game here, no my five concrete 1497 01:02:17,733 --> 01:02:19,600 game here, no my five concrete proposals number one and I say 1498 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,833 proposals number one and I say this very carefully uh is to 1499 01:02:22,833 --> 01:02:25,401 this very carefully uh is to start thinking about strategic 1500 01:02:25,401 --> 01:02:27,467 start thinking about strategic autonomy in a serious kind of a 1501 01:02:27,467 --> 01:02:29,299 autonomy in a serious kind of a way and by strategic autonomy, 1502 01:02:29,299 --> 01:02:31,234 way and by strategic autonomy, I do not mean in protectionism, 1503 01:02:31,234 --> 01:02:33,200 I do not mean in protectionism, but I mean that we need to be 1504 01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,200 but I mean that we need to be aware of the realities of 1505 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,433 aware of the realities of economics, I wrote in 2016 a 1506 01:02:39,433 --> 01:02:40,799 economics, I wrote in 2016 a column in the financial Times, 1507 01:02:40,799 --> 01:02:44,201 column in the financial Times, which I provocative called for. 1508 01:02:44,201 --> 01:02:47,034 which I provocative called for. Chyna Europe is the new Africa 1509 01:02:47,034 --> 01:02:48,867 Chyna Europe is the new Africa and by that I meant to say that 1510 01:02:48,867 --> 01:02:52,299 and by that I meant to say that with the acquisitions of IPO, 1511 01:02:52,299 --> 01:02:52,867 with the acquisitions of IPO, uh information, technology 1512 01:02:52,867 --> 01:02:55,333 uh information, technology companies and other that was 1513 01:02:55,333 --> 01:02:57,166 companies and other that was clearly a strategic approach, 1514 01:02:57,166 --> 01:02:58,900 clearly a strategic approach, and I proposed that perhaps 1515 01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:00,666 and I proposed that perhaps Europe should have a safety 1516 01:03:00,666 --> 01:03:03,267 Europe should have a safety type of an organization number 1517 01:03:03,267 --> 01:03:04,900 type of an organization number two use the trade instruments. 1518 01:03:04,900 --> 01:03:05,800 two use the trade instruments. I’m with Anne Marie on this, we 1519 01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,733 I’m with Anne Marie on this, we are the biggest traders in the 1520 01:03:08,733 --> 01:03:10,000 are the biggest traders in the world uh the commission. 1521 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:11,467 world uh the commission. Fortunately, it has exclusive 1522 01:03:11,467 --> 01:03:13,133 Fortunately, it has exclusive competence on trade whoever the 1523 01:03:13,133 --> 01:03:14,733 competence on trade whoever the next trade commissioners going 1524 01:03:14,733 --> 01:03:17,867 next trade commissioners going to be use that it’s. Power uh 1525 01:03:17,867 --> 01:03:20,600 to be use that it’s. Power uh number three use the 1526 01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,767 number three use the prerogative of regulatory power 1527 01:03:22,767 --> 01:03:24,400 prerogative of regulatory power if the European Union is 1528 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:25,934 if the European Union is something it is a regulatory 1529 01:03:25,934 --> 01:03:27,034 something it is a regulatory power when it’s regulates. That 1530 01:03:27,034 --> 01:03:28,666 power when it’s regulates. That means that a lot of companies 1531 01:03:28,666 --> 01:03:31,667 means that a lot of companies fall in line there was to say 1532 01:03:31,667 --> 01:03:32,534 fall in line there was to say earlier Economics falls in the 1533 01:03:32,534 --> 01:03:33,967 earlier Economics falls in the line of politics. Well, I think 1534 01:03:33,967 --> 01:03:36,000 line of politics. Well, I think uh economics force into the 1535 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:37,333 uh economics force into the line of regulations as well. We 1536 01:03:37,333 --> 01:03:40,334 line of regulations as well. We don’t live in a way wild west 1537 01:03:40,334 --> 01:03:43,967 don’t live in a way wild west of capitalism uh number four do 1538 01:03:43,967 --> 01:03:45,400 of capitalism uh number four do everything in your power to 1539 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,700 everything in your power to make the euro independent. Most 1540 01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:50,299 make the euro independent. Most powerful currency in the world 1541 01:03:50,299 --> 01:03:51,967 powerful currency in the world for the time that we still have 1542 01:03:51,967 --> 01:03:54,201 for the time that we still have currencies, I think you know it 1543 01:03:54,201 --> 01:03:55,867 currencies, I think you know it was a political project from 1544 01:03:55,867 --> 01:03:57,133 was a political project from the beginning to push it to the 1545 01:03:57,133 --> 01:03:59,200 the beginning to push it to the limit. Make it strong being 1546 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,267 limit. Make it strong being independent. so if you wanna do 1547 01:04:01,267 --> 01:04:03,399 independent. so if you wanna do sanctions uh with Iran, you’re 1548 01:04:03,399 --> 01:04:04,133 sanctions uh with Iran, you’re not dependent on, you know the 1549 01:04:04,133 --> 01:04:05,467 not dependent on, you know the swift system or anything like 1550 01:04:05,467 --> 01:04:08,699 swift system or anything like that and number five uh use the 1551 01:04:08,699 --> 01:04:12,633 that and number five uh use the power of uh competition policy 1552 01:04:12,633 --> 01:04:16,000 power of uh competition policy uh in the way in which Margaret 1553 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:17,500 uh in the way in which Margaret Besty is doing it doing right 1554 01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:19,600 Besty is doing it doing right now. That’s gonna be the big 1555 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,933 now. That’s gonna be the big game there again. It’s an area 1556 01:04:21,933 --> 01:04:23,167 game there again. It’s an area where the European Union has 1557 01:04:23,167 --> 01:04:24,734 where the European Union has exclusive competence. So what 1558 01:04:24,734 --> 01:04:25,900 exclusive competence. So what I’m saying is that if you wanna 1559 01:04:25,900 --> 01:04:28,666 I’m saying is that if you wanna be a serious political power 1560 01:04:28,666 --> 01:04:31,967 be a serious political power use the economic tools of uh 1561 01:04:31,967 --> 01:04:35,333 use the economic tools of uh strategic autonomy Trades 1562 01:04:35,333 --> 01:04:38,333 strategic autonomy Trades regulation, euro and 1563 01:04:38,333 --> 01:04:39,834 regulation, euro and competition. Thank you that we 1564 01:04:39,834 --> 01:04:43,800 competition. Thank you that we clear and precise uh it does 1565 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,400 clear and precise uh it does not require a significant 1566 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:47,600 not require a significant changes in the governance of 1567 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,400 changes in the governance of the EU. right. No I’d. Again 1568 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,234 the EU. right. No I’d. Again II, My life was based on uh 1569 01:04:54,234 --> 01:04:55,834 II, My life was based on uh treat the negotiations I did 1570 01:04:55,834 --> 01:04:59,533 treat the negotiations I did Amsterdam niece Constitution 1571 01:04:59,533 --> 01:05:01,800 Amsterdam niece Constitution and we don’t need that ??? 1572 01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:02,433 and we don’t need that ??? anymore. the biggest 1573 01:05:02,433 --> 01:05:04,767 anymore. the biggest advancements we’ve made in 1574 01:05:04,767 --> 01:05:05,734 advancements we’ve made in economic policy uh and in 1575 01:05:05,734 --> 01:05:07,667 economic policy uh and in fiscal policy have come through 1576 01:05:07,667 --> 01:05:09,100 fiscal policy have come through crisis and I think we can 1577 01:05:09,100 --> 01:05:13,000 crisis and I think we can continue that uh as is very 1578 01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:22,933 continue that uh as is very good doin well um. Following on 1579 01:05:22,933 --> 01:05:25,333 good doin well um. Following on what has just been said, uh, I 1580 01:05:25,333 --> 01:05:28,266 what has just been said, uh, I don’t think the biggest 1581 01:05:28,266 --> 01:05:31,700 don’t think the biggest advancement have been made they 1582 01:05:31,700 --> 01:05:37,299 advancement have been made they still have uh to be created um 1583 01:05:37,299 --> 01:05:41,267 still have uh to be created um Europe’s ambition is to be the 1584 01:05:41,267 --> 01:05:44,201 Europe’s ambition is to be the continent of norms the model, 1585 01:05:44,201 --> 01:05:47,066 continent of norms the model, but you can’t be a model if you 1586 01:05:47,066 --> 01:05:49,867 but you can’t be a model if you are not perceived as an actor 1587 01:05:49,867 --> 01:05:52,500 are not perceived as an actor and even. So today than 1588 01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:54,400 and even. So today than yesterday, you will not be 1589 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,400 yesterday, you will not be perceived as an actor if you 1590 01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,800 perceived as an actor if you are not perceived to exist in 1591 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,633 are not perceived to exist in political terms and we do exist 1592 01:06:02,633 --> 01:06:05,167 political terms and we do exist and here I think they are some 1593 01:06:05,167 --> 01:06:07,767 and here I think they are some contradictions uh that are 1594 01:06:07,767 --> 01:06:09,300 contradictions uh that are appearing to me and the first 1595 01:06:09,300 --> 01:06:11,767 appearing to me and the first one is that the law of 1596 01:06:11,767 --> 01:06:14,467 one is that the law of comparative advantages is uh 1597 01:06:14,467 --> 01:06:17,199 comparative advantages is uh put forward by uh the key 1598 01:06:17,199 --> 01:06:19,466 put forward by uh the key European countries in 1599 01:06:19,466 --> 01:06:23,833 European countries in particular. Why are we in 1600 01:06:23,833 --> 01:06:25,934 particular. Why are we in Lebanon because we think we can 1601 01:06:25,934 --> 01:06:28,233 Lebanon because we think we can make a difference but we are in 1602 01:06:28,233 --> 01:06:30,833 make a difference but we are in Lebanon and uh a lot of people 1603 01:06:30,833 --> 01:06:32,200 Lebanon and uh a lot of people would say in particular in 1604 01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,900 would say in particular in Poland. uh why are you so much 1605 01:06:35,900 --> 01:06:36,333 Poland. uh why are you so much interested in the Middle East 1606 01:06:36,333 --> 01:06:38,700 interested in the Middle East and why you’re looking with 1607 01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:41,633 and why you’re looking with some distance? uh with what’s 1608 01:06:41,633 --> 01:06:45,467 some distance? uh with what’s happening right now in Russia? 1609 01:06:45,467 --> 01:06:47,966 happening right now in Russia? uh the Russians are Europeans. 1610 01:06:47,966 --> 01:06:49,400 uh the Russians are Europeans. In fact, you could say there 1611 01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,033 In fact, you could say there are more Europeans than 1612 01:06:51,033 --> 01:06:54,234 are more Europeans than Russians. Of their history, uh 1613 01:06:54,234 --> 01:06:55,800 Russians. Of their history, uh because they were part at some 1614 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,400 because they were part at some point of the Kingdom of Poland 1615 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:03,867 point of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania and that pushes 1616 01:07:03,867 --> 01:07:07,767 and Lithuania and that pushes me uh to uh say that the big 1617 01:07:07,767 --> 01:07:10,567 me uh to uh say that the big question for us in the future 1618 01:07:10,567 --> 01:07:13,467 question for us in the future is going to be our relationship 1619 01:07:13,467 --> 01:07:15,966 is going to be our relationship with the United States. a lot 1620 01:07:15,966 --> 01:07:18,299 with the United States. a lot of people in my country are 1621 01:07:18,299 --> 01:07:20,133 of people in my country are starting to say we should not 1622 01:07:20,133 --> 01:07:23,301 starting to say we should not choose between Beijing. In 1623 01:07:23,301 --> 01:07:26,633 choose between Beijing. In Washington and that pushes them 1624 01:07:26,633 --> 01:07:30,667 Washington and that pushes them somewhere to be uh to wish 1625 01:07:30,667 --> 01:07:33,167 somewhere to be uh to wish secretly that the Donald Trump 1626 01:07:33,167 --> 01:07:35,167 secretly that the Donald Trump will be reelected, which will 1627 01:07:35,167 --> 01:07:37,967 will be reelected, which will make that position of not 1628 01:07:37,967 --> 01:07:39,467 make that position of not choosing between Washington and 1629 01:07:39,467 --> 01:07:42,834 choosing between Washington and Beijing easier uh to put you 1630 01:07:42,834 --> 01:07:45,233 Beijing easier uh to put you well, I’m just on the opposite 1631 01:07:45,233 --> 01:07:46,867 well, I’m just on the opposite side of things I think Geo 1632 01:07:46,867 --> 01:07:49,800 side of things I think Geo politics will matter more in 1633 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,400 politics will matter more in the years to come than it did 1634 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:53,967 the years to come than it did previously and that in that 1635 01:07:53,967 --> 01:07:58,666 previously and that in that case. Um not to choose between 1636 01:07:58,666 --> 01:08:01,301 case. Um not to choose between China and the United States is 1637 01:08:01,301 --> 01:08:04,534 China and the United States is very dangerous uh for Europe it 1638 01:08:04,534 --> 01:08:06,667 very dangerous uh for Europe it would would signify that we 1639 01:08:06,667 --> 01:08:09,333 would would signify that we don’t take seriously uh the 1640 01:08:09,333 --> 01:08:12,200 don’t take seriously uh the values which we are always 1641 01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,800 values which we are always recruiting on our front, the 1642 01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,267 recruiting on our front, the land of uh the democracy and 1643 01:08:18,267 --> 01:08:21,300 land of uh the democracy and the freedom uh and and so uh to 1644 01:08:21,300 --> 01:08:23,434 the freedom uh and and so uh to my mind when I say um the 1645 01:08:23,434 --> 01:08:27,801 my mind when I say um the biggest challenge. Are still to 1646 01:08:27,801 --> 01:08:31,767 biggest challenge. Are still to come will uh Europe tomorrow be 1647 01:08:31,767 --> 01:08:35,634 come will uh Europe tomorrow be perceived by others as an actor 1648 01:08:35,634 --> 01:08:38,867 perceived by others as an actor that matters in geopolitical 1649 01:08:38,867 --> 01:08:41,866 that matters in geopolitical terms and today seen from 1650 01:08:41,866 --> 01:08:45,133 terms and today seen from Beijing from Moscow and uh 1651 01:08:45,133 --> 01:08:47,866 Beijing from Moscow and uh probably from Washington. We 1652 01:08:47,866 --> 01:08:51,867 probably from Washington. We are a marginal uh player in the 1653 01:08:51,867 --> 01:08:54,633 are a marginal uh player in the geopolitical game and we. Be 1654 01:08:54,633 --> 01:08:57,100 geopolitical game and we. Be doing everything that is in our 1655 01:08:57,100 --> 01:09:00,167 doing everything that is in our possibility to justify that 1656 01:09:00,167 --> 01:09:03,134 possibility to justify that perception uh which uh to my 1657 01:09:03,134 --> 01:09:06,800 perception uh which uh to my mind should not exist any 1658 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:08,500 mind should not exist any longer for all the reasons that 1659 01:09:08,500 --> 01:09:10,934 longer for all the reasons that we’re given previously uh 1660 01:09:10,934 --> 01:09:12,299 we’re given previously uh including the fact that the 1661 01:09:12,299 --> 01:09:14,900 including the fact that the United States in 2020 is not 1662 01:09:14,900 --> 01:09:17,900 United States in 2020 is not the United States that existed 1663 01:09:17,900 --> 01:09:22,367 the United States that existed before with or without Trump as 1664 01:09:22,367 --> 01:09:24,800 before with or without Trump as president would you. Disagree 1665 01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:26,867 president would you. Disagree explicitly with Alex when he 1666 01:09:26,867 --> 01:09:30,767 explicitly with Alex when he said the you should be playing 1667 01:09:30,767 --> 01:09:33,299 said the you should be playing 75% of the US and 25% of the 1668 01:09:33,299 --> 01:09:36,733 75% of the US and 25% of the time we China. Not when it 1669 01:09:36,733 --> 01:09:40,667 time we China. Not when it comes to wake up, no, but 1670 01:09:40,667 --> 01:09:44,367 comes to wake up, no, but definitely if uh the Chinese 1671 01:09:44,367 --> 01:09:48,201 definitely if uh the Chinese are moving aggressively towards 1672 01:09:48,201 --> 01:09:52,367 are moving aggressively towards Taiwan if they are completely 1673 01:09:52,367 --> 01:09:56,933 Taiwan if they are completely uh recuperate Hong Kong there’s 1674 01:09:56,933 --> 01:09:57,833 uh recuperate Hong Kong there’s no25 percent uh with the 1675 01:09:57,833 --> 01:09:59,267 no25 percent uh with the triangle. I think we all agree 1676 01:09:59,267 --> 01:10:00,733 triangle. I think we all agree that that’s uh that’s let me 1677 01:10:00,733 --> 01:10:03,299 that that’s uh that’s let me just add. then I agree 100% 1678 01:10:03,299 --> 01:10:04,900 just add. then I agree 100% with dominated. I think we all 1679 01:10:04,900 --> 01:10:05,800 with dominated. I think we all agree on that. The question is 1680 01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,434 agree on that. The question is whether this. Pace for a 25% in 1681 01:10:08,434 --> 01:10:09,600 whether this. Pace for a 25% in the years to come, That’s the 1682 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:14,200 the years to come, That’s the big question. Yeah. Can you 1683 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:16,033 big question. Yeah. Can you Natalie? Can you tell us what 1684 01:10:16,033 --> 01:10:18,866 Natalie? Can you tell us what you think? well? I mean, I 1685 01:10:18,866 --> 01:10:20,333 you think? well? I mean, I think you know what whether 1686 01:10:20,333 --> 01:10:23,766 think you know what whether there’s a space for a 25% where 1687 01:10:23,766 --> 01:10:26,234 there’s a space for a 25% where we are um in the position to 1688 01:10:26,234 --> 01:10:27,300 we are um in the position to play good or not or whether it 1689 01:10:27,300 --> 01:10:28,600 play good or not or whether it at the very least we should be 1690 01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,234 at the very least we should be in a position to prevent others 1691 01:10:30,234 --> 01:10:32,333 in a position to prevent others from encroaching upon us. The 1692 01:10:32,333 --> 01:10:34,533 from encroaching upon us. The theme here that I think was uh 1693 01:10:34,533 --> 01:10:36,000 theme here that I think was uh a dancing around this question 1694 01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,233 a dancing around this question of European sovereigns to 1695 01:10:37,233 --> 01:10:38,767 of European sovereigns to European autonomy. Now I don’t 1696 01:10:38,767 --> 01:10:40,633 European autonomy. Now I don’t like the term sovereignty cuz I 1697 01:10:40,633 --> 01:10:41,967 like the term sovereignty cuz I don’t much like Anne Marie I 1698 01:10:41,967 --> 01:10:44,600 don’t much like Anne Marie I do. About the European Union 1699 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:48,567 do. About the European Union and in state terms uh but but I 1700 01:10:48,567 --> 01:10:50,299 and in state terms uh but but I do like the world, tell me a 1701 01:10:50,299 --> 01:10:51,100 do like the world, tell me a lot and I like the word for 1702 01:10:51,100 --> 01:10:53,267 lot and I like the word for what it means and it is 1703 01:10:53,267 --> 01:10:54,767 what it means and it is ultimately about the ability of 1704 01:10:54,767 --> 01:10:56,200 ultimately about the ability of the self meaning in this case, 1705 01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,700 the self meaning in this case, the European Union uh to live 1706 01:10:58,700 --> 01:10:59,833 the European Union uh to live by it’s laws and it’s a 1707 01:10:59,833 --> 01:11:02,367 by it’s laws and it’s a domestic that European and 1708 01:11:02,367 --> 01:11:03,000 domestic that European and international and therefore 1709 01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:04,266 international and therefore this is connected to the rule 1710 01:11:04,266 --> 01:11:06,199 this is connected to the rule of law international rules 1711 01:11:06,199 --> 01:11:08,567 of law international rules based system uh question. So I 1712 01:11:08,567 --> 01:11:10,234 based system uh question. So I think you know the question is 1713 01:11:10,234 --> 01:11:11,533 think you know the question is how how to do this you know and 1714 01:11:11,533 --> 01:11:15,133 how how to do this you know and and Sign off on those are the 1715 01:11:15,133 --> 01:11:18,867 and Sign off on those are the five points that Alex has uh 1716 01:11:18,867 --> 01:11:20,234 five points that Alex has uh and and and in many respects, I 1717 01:11:20,234 --> 01:11:22,867 and and and in many respects, I think these do reflect what the 1718 01:11:22,867 --> 01:11:24,266 think these do reflect what the priorities of the current 1719 01:11:24,266 --> 01:11:25,967 priorities of the current commission are where my heart 1720 01:11:25,967 --> 01:11:29,400 commission are where my heart bleeds here is is really on the 1721 01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:31,900 bleeds here is is really on the sort of global security and 1722 01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:32,700 sort of global security and defense, France and the reason 1723 01:11:32,700 --> 01:11:35,767 defense, France and the reason why it leads is that whereas 1724 01:11:35,767 --> 01:11:37,533 why it leads is that whereas over the last, you know four or 1725 01:11:37,533 --> 01:11:39,734 over the last, you know four or 5 years, this was very much at 1726 01:11:39,734 --> 01:11:41,000 5 years, this was very much at the top of the debate, perhaps 1727 01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,333 the top of the debate, perhaps because we were so. You could 1728 01:11:43,333 --> 01:11:43,967 because we were so. You could agree on anything else you 1729 01:11:43,967 --> 01:11:46,433 agree on anything else you know, particularly when it came 1730 01:11:46,433 --> 01:11:47,800 know, particularly when it came to uh to the economy, as well 1731 01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,299 to uh to the economy, as well as as well as migration and now 1732 01:11:50,299 --> 01:11:53,766 as as well as migration and now that agenda has some uh kinda 1733 01:11:53,766 --> 01:11:55,234 that agenda has some uh kinda shifted into the background and 1734 01:11:55,234 --> 01:11:57,200 shifted into the background and where is I do believe that we 1735 01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:58,301 where is I do believe that we should be doing everything 1736 01:11:58,301 --> 01:11:59,533 should be doing everything we’re doing on the climates 1737 01:11:59,533 --> 01:12:01,799 we’re doing on the climates among the digital. uh I do also 1738 01:12:01,799 --> 01:12:03,400 among the digital. uh I do also think that we should be uh 1739 01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:04,967 think that we should be uh moving forward on the autonomy 1740 01:12:04,967 --> 01:12:06,434 moving forward on the autonomy agenda when it comes to 1741 01:12:06,434 --> 01:12:07,934 agenda when it comes to security and defense and here I 1742 01:12:07,934 --> 01:12:09,700 security and defense and here I really wanted to connect this 1743 01:12:09,700 --> 01:12:12,733 really wanted to connect this question to that. How are we? 1744 01:12:12,733 --> 01:12:15,667 question to that. How are we? On this debate uh in the event 1745 01:12:15,667 --> 01:12:17,133 On this debate uh in the event of the second Trump 1746 01:12:17,133 --> 01:12:18,267 of the second Trump administration, as opposed to 1747 01:12:18,267 --> 01:12:19,967 administration, as opposed to the event of a administration 1748 01:12:19,967 --> 01:12:23,367 the event of a administration and I think in many respects um 1749 01:12:23,367 --> 01:12:24,766 and I think in many respects um we kind of have it. You know 1750 01:12:24,766 --> 01:12:26,267 we kind of have it. You know there. there’s a complexity in 1751 01:12:26,267 --> 01:12:29,100 there. there’s a complexity in both cases so whereas in the 1752 01:12:29,100 --> 01:12:31,234 both cases so whereas in the event of the second Trump 1753 01:12:31,234 --> 01:12:31,900 event of the second Trump administration, they would 1754 01:12:31,900 --> 01:12:34,300 administration, they would definitely be uh I think a 1755 01:12:34,300 --> 01:12:37,000 definitely be uh I think a resume European results to move 1756 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,400 resume European results to move forward on a strategic autonomy 1757 01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:40,000 forward on a strategic autonomy agenda, including in the area 1758 01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:42,666 agenda, including in the area of security defense. But it 1759 01:12:42,666 --> 01:12:44,201 of security defense. But it would be much harder for us to 1760 01:12:44,201 --> 01:12:46,767 would be much harder for us to pursue it because obviously a 1761 01:12:46,767 --> 01:12:47,499 pursue it because obviously a Trump the Trump administration 1762 01:12:47,499 --> 01:12:49,833 Trump the Trump administration much like the first Trump 1763 01:12:49,833 --> 01:12:50,667 much like the first Trump administration. we’re trying to 1764 01:12:50,667 --> 01:12:53,199 administration. we’re trying to do everything to us and that to 1765 01:12:53,199 --> 01:12:55,166 do everything to us and that to prevent us from moving forward 1766 01:12:55,166 --> 01:12:57,966 prevent us from moving forward on this agenda um but uh as I 1767 01:12:57,966 --> 01:12:58,934 on this agenda um but uh as I said, our willingness are 1768 01:12:58,934 --> 01:13:00,267 said, our willingness are result would be higher in the 1769 01:13:00,267 --> 01:13:03,367 result would be higher in the event of AX the administration. 1770 01:13:03,367 --> 01:13:03,967 event of AX the administration. I think that they would 1771 01:13:03,967 --> 01:13:05,633 I think that they would certainly be far greater 1772 01:13:05,633 --> 01:13:06,667 certainly be far greater support on the side of the 1773 01:13:06,667 --> 01:13:08,799 support on the side of the United States, the Europeans to 1774 01:13:08,799 --> 01:13:10,433 United States, the Europeans to assume greater responsibility 1775 01:13:10,433 --> 01:13:12,267 assume greater responsibility uh particularly. It came to the 1776 01:13:12,267 --> 01:13:13,834 uh particularly. It came to the surrounding regions and that 1777 01:13:13,834 --> 01:13:16,400 surrounding regions and that for exert autonomy in this uh 1778 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:17,967 for exert autonomy in this uh particularly in our surrounding 1779 01:13:17,967 --> 01:13:19,600 particularly in our surrounding regions um but I think there 1780 01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:21,767 regions um but I think there would be an awful for European 1781 01:13:21,767 --> 01:13:23,299 would be an awful for European temptation to sit on our 1782 01:13:23,299 --> 01:13:24,767 temptation to sit on our laurels and simply dream that 1783 01:13:24,767 --> 01:13:26,933 laurels and simply dream that we’ve returned to the wonderful 1784 01:13:26,933 --> 01:13:27,700 we’ve returned to the wonderful past that we used to live in 1785 01:13:27,700 --> 01:13:29,067 past that we used to live in and therefore our willingness 1786 01:13:29,067 --> 01:13:31,433 and therefore our willingness to move forward with this 1787 01:13:31,433 --> 01:13:34,967 to move forward with this agenda uh would remain perhaps 1788 01:13:34,967 --> 01:13:36,500 agenda uh would remain perhaps as low as it is as it is now so 1789 01:13:36,500 --> 01:13:37,967 as low as it is as it is now so to sort of council long story 1790 01:13:37,967 --> 01:13:39,300 to sort of council long story short, I think where is we kind 1791 01:13:39,300 --> 01:13:42,000 short, I think where is we kind of get it? you know? Understand 1792 01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,201 of get it? you know? Understand what we need to do, I have not 1793 01:13:44,201 --> 01:13:47,200 what we need to do, I have not managed to do it on everything 1794 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,367 managed to do it on everything that is not hard. Uh I think 1795 01:13:50,367 --> 01:13:52,767 that is not hard. Uh I think that we’re kind of moving 1796 01:13:52,767 --> 01:13:54,199 that we’re kind of moving forward uh when it came to the 1797 01:13:54,199 --> 01:13:56,500 forward uh when it came to the more traditional uh sort of 1798 01:13:56,500 --> 01:13:58,500 more traditional uh sort of foreign policy questions in the 1799 01:13:58,500 --> 01:14:00,333 foreign policy questions in the previous institutional cycle 1800 01:14:00,333 --> 01:14:03,267 previous institutional cycle and now much, I think you know 1801 01:14:03,267 --> 01:14:04,900 and now much, I think you know largely because of of coverage, 1802 01:14:04,900 --> 01:14:07,167 largely because of of coverage, which is really refocus the 1803 01:14:07,167 --> 01:14:08,133 which is really refocus the attention inwards rather than 1804 01:14:08,133 --> 01:14:11,300 attention inwards rather than outwards. Uh we’ve kind of. And 1805 01:14:11,300 --> 01:14:12,734 outwards. Uh we’ve kind of. And that the world is kind of 1806 01:14:12,734 --> 01:14:13,900 that the world is kind of continued to move and not in a 1807 01:14:13,900 --> 01:14:15,267 continued to move and not in a particular reassuring 1808 01:14:15,267 --> 01:14:17,834 particular reassuring directions as both me and in 1809 01:14:17,834 --> 01:14:19,934 directions as both me and in different ways I have actually 1810 01:14:19,934 --> 01:14:23,733 different ways I have actually demonstrated to us. Thank you. 1811 01:14:23,733 --> 01:14:25,234 demonstrated to us. Thank you. let me let me turn to the 1812 01:14:25,234 --> 01:14:26,900 let me let me turn to the question from the from the U. 1813 01:14:26,900 --> 01:14:29,633 question from the from the U. There’s several I would so sort 1814 01:14:29,633 --> 01:14:31,866 There’s several I would so sort of like to start with one that 1815 01:14:31,866 --> 01:14:33,433 of like to start with one that sort of photos on what you just 1816 01:14:33,433 --> 01:14:35,867 sort of photos on what you just said, and we just discussed you 1817 01:14:35,867 --> 01:14:39,933 said, and we just discussed you know if an EU US uh the 1818 01:14:39,933 --> 01:14:41,433 know if an EU US uh the question is uh China is one 1819 01:14:41,433 --> 01:14:43,967 question is uh China is one problem but all the perspective 1820 01:14:43,967 --> 01:14:46,700 problem but all the perspective what are the for US relations 1821 01:14:46,700 --> 01:14:48,466 what are the for US relations the tensions in recent years on 1822 01:14:48,466 --> 01:14:51,100 the tensions in recent years on trade climate change etcetera 1823 01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:54,200 trade climate change etcetera uh where with the lead I think. 1824 01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:55,200 uh where with the lead I think. Question important Question for 1825 01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:57,533 Question important Question for us Is you know uh do we think 1826 01:14:57,533 --> 01:15:01,266 us Is you know uh do we think the sort of in this kind of 1827 01:15:01,266 --> 01:15:02,433 the sort of in this kind of environment fundamental reason 1828 01:15:02,433 --> 01:15:05,133 environment fundamental reason for the US and the U to have 1829 01:15:05,133 --> 01:15:06,267 for the US and the U to have different perspectives and a 1830 01:15:06,267 --> 01:15:08,000 different perspectives and a number of of the issue. We’re 1831 01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,434 number of of the issue. We’re speaking of on the on the 1832 01:15:10,434 --> 01:15:14,600 speaking of on the on the global trading system um on the 1833 01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:16,699 global trading system um on the on the currencies system on 1834 01:15:16,699 --> 01:15:19,767 on the currencies system on climate change uh on technology 1835 01:15:19,767 --> 01:15:22,533 climate change uh on technology etcetera, I mean in that deep 1836 01:15:22,533 --> 01:15:25,466 etcetera, I mean in that deep or is it uh just a sort of 1837 01:15:25,466 --> 01:15:27,767 or is it uh just a sort of normal. Nuances friction that 1838 01:15:27,767 --> 01:15:30,434 normal. Nuances friction that can be uh between uh two 1839 01:15:30,434 --> 01:15:32,167 can be uh between uh two partners that fundamentally 1840 01:15:32,167 --> 01:15:37,134 partners that fundamentally shares the same perspective. 1841 01:15:37,834 --> 01:15:42,400 Pst Why don’t you start? Well, 1842 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:47,900 Pst Why don’t you start? Well, that’s deep in terms of um well 1843 01:15:47,900 --> 01:15:52,467 that’s deep in terms of um well if I understand it correctly 1844 01:15:52,467 --> 01:15:58,934 if I understand it correctly um. You know um it’s it’s it’s 1845 01:15:58,934 --> 01:16:00,400 um. You know um it’s it’s it’s uh everybody knows that uh 1846 01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:03,500 uh everybody knows that uh Poland has a very uh uh very 1847 01:16:03,500 --> 01:16:05,700 Poland has a very uh uh very strong bones on security levels 1848 01:16:05,700 --> 01:16:07,399 strong bones on security levels with the United States. Uh this 1849 01:16:07,399 --> 01:16:10,867 with the United States. Uh this is both uh out of fear and uh 1850 01:16:10,867 --> 01:16:13,199 is both uh out of fear and uh out of uh you know uh knowledge 1851 01:16:13,199 --> 01:16:17,233 out of uh you know uh knowledge of the history and um it’s very 1852 01:16:17,233 --> 01:16:20,133 of the history and um it’s very difficult to um uh always 1853 01:16:20,133 --> 01:16:23,333 difficult to um uh always understand this position um but 1854 01:16:23,333 --> 01:16:26,733 understand this position um but I would say that in many ways 1855 01:16:26,733 --> 01:16:28,333 I would say that in many ways in economic terms to European 1856 01:16:28,333 --> 01:16:31,067 in economic terms to European Union uh has a. To do with the 1857 01:16:31,067 --> 01:16:34,634 Union uh has a. To do with the United States uh in the near 1858 01:16:34,634 --> 01:16:40,267 United States uh in the near future if we think of security, 1859 01:16:40,267 --> 01:16:41,399 future if we think of security, for example, the the point I 1860 01:16:41,399 --> 01:16:42,867 for example, the the point I made about you know the 1861 01:16:42,867 --> 01:16:45,233 made about you know the concerns that the usage of 1862 01:16:45,233 --> 01:16:45,900 concerns that the usage of technology and then you know 1863 01:16:45,900 --> 01:16:47,467 technology and then you know we’ve been inspired by the 1864 01:16:47,467 --> 01:16:49,533 we’ve been inspired by the United States for you know the 1865 01:16:49,533 --> 01:16:51,333 United States for you know the Western Europe was inspired by 1866 01:16:51,333 --> 01:16:54,966 Western Europe was inspired by the uh probably or two uh for 1867 01:16:54,966 --> 01:16:56,234 the uh probably or two uh for 50 years, but you know you 1868 01:16:56,234 --> 01:17:00,267 50 years, but you know you United states besides of uh. Uh 1869 01:17:00,267 --> 01:17:02,667 United states besides of uh. Uh a trading partner didn’t use 1870 01:17:02,667 --> 01:17:05,633 a trading partner didn’t use that knowledge in terms of any 1871 01:17:05,633 --> 01:17:08,267 that knowledge in terms of any uh probably uh security 1872 01:17:08,267 --> 01:17:10,767 uh probably uh security breaches breaches or besides of 1873 01:17:10,767 --> 01:17:13,767 breaches breaches or besides of uh doing something wrong 1874 01:17:13,767 --> 01:17:16,367 uh doing something wrong Basically um I would say that 1875 01:17:16,367 --> 01:17:19,000 Basically um I would say that doing more uh with a different 1876 01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:23,434 doing more uh with a different kind of uh regime uh moratorium 1877 01:17:23,434 --> 01:17:27,467 kind of uh regime uh moratorium um gives a bit of um uh of um 1878 01:17:27,467 --> 01:17:29,967 um gives a bit of um uh of um different possibility. We act 1879 01:17:29,967 --> 01:17:32,700 different possibility. We act the same because it has a bit 1880 01:17:32,700 --> 01:17:35,567 the same because it has a bit of a different value system and 1881 01:17:35,567 --> 01:17:37,833 of a different value system and this is uh I think what’s the 1882 01:17:37,833 --> 01:17:40,666 this is uh I think what’s the you know we might not agree 1883 01:17:40,666 --> 01:17:42,366 you know we might not agree with the Republican Party, 1884 01:17:42,366 --> 01:17:44,700 with the Republican Party, which works as it works right 1885 01:17:44,700 --> 01:17:48,666 which works as it works right now uh but we can you know um 1886 01:17:48,666 --> 01:17:52,267 now uh but we can you know um uh agree that probably people 1887 01:17:52,267 --> 01:17:53,967 uh agree that probably people in uh re-education camps are 1888 01:17:53,967 --> 01:17:55,966 in uh re-education camps are not okay or you know going to 1889 01:17:55,966 --> 01:17:56,567 not okay or you know going to Hong Kong is that okay, we 1890 01:17:56,567 --> 01:17:57,800 Hong Kong is that okay, we don’t know what China’s going 1891 01:17:57,800 --> 01:17:59,767 don’t know what China’s going to. In the near future, but 1892 01:17:59,767 --> 01:18:02,133 to. In the near future, but this is not you know the 1893 01:18:02,133 --> 01:18:03,967 this is not you know the America that we know uh as it, 1894 01:18:03,967 --> 01:18:05,899 America that we know uh as it, it’s not gonna do the same 1895 01:18:05,899 --> 01:18:07,299 it’s not gonna do the same things and I would say that you 1896 01:18:07,299 --> 01:18:08,800 things and I would say that you know in the value system. it’s 1897 01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:10,400 know in the value system. it’s easier to cooperate with the uh 1898 01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:13,000 easier to cooperate with the uh with the with the United States 1899 01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,733 with the with the United States uh but probably uh because of 1900 01:18:15,733 --> 01:18:18,200 uh but probably uh because of the trade exchange with China 1901 01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:19,833 the trade exchange with China uh and you know we didn’t talk 1902 01:18:19,833 --> 01:18:23,334 uh and you know we didn’t talk about the coupling uh and uh 1903 01:18:23,334 --> 01:18:26,467 about the coupling uh and uh all that with which many uh 1904 01:18:26,467 --> 01:18:30,333 all that with which many uh European leaders. To have more 1905 01:18:30,333 --> 01:18:31,400 European leaders. To have more businesses in the European 1906 01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:32,767 businesses in the European Union, but maybe there’s also 1907 01:18:32,767 --> 01:18:34,367 Union, but maybe there’s also is going to be a shift. maybe 1908 01:18:34,367 --> 01:18:35,833 is going to be a shift. maybe we’re also going to, for 1909 01:18:35,833 --> 01:18:37,533 we’re also going to, for example, uh create drugs and 1910 01:18:37,533 --> 01:18:39,966 example, uh create drugs and produce them in Europe with 1911 01:18:39,966 --> 01:18:41,367 produce them in Europe with industry 4.00. I don’t know 1912 01:18:41,367 --> 01:18:43,434 industry 4.00. I don’t know when we’re gonna have the 1913 01:18:43,434 --> 01:18:44,166 when we’re gonna have the technology to keep the prices 1914 01:18:44,166 --> 01:18:45,633 technology to keep the prices low. We have the first on the 1915 01:18:45,633 --> 01:18:47,134 low. We have the first on the first day they were discussions 1916 01:18:47,134 --> 01:18:49,267 first day they were discussions on this topic uh during the 1917 01:18:49,267 --> 01:18:51,600 on this topic uh during the annual meetings so uh I would 1918 01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,400 annual meetings so uh I would say that uh talking about the 1919 01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:58,800 say that uh talking about the value system and um. And the 1920 01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:00,400 value system and um. And the trust that we can have to a 1921 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:01,867 trust that we can have to a trading partner in The United 1922 01:19:01,867 --> 01:19:06,766 trading partner in The United States is a lot uh better 1923 01:19:06,766 --> 01:19:09,633 States is a lot uh better option than uh than the other 1924 01:19:09,633 --> 01:19:12,300 option than uh than the other one at this point, maybe this 1925 01:19:12,300 --> 01:19:14,633 one at this point, maybe this is going to shift and this may 1926 01:19:14,633 --> 01:19:17,333 is going to shift and this may change, but there’s a lot of 1927 01:19:17,333 --> 01:19:18,867 change, but there’s a lot of second question. Uh I think in 1928 01:19:18,867 --> 01:19:24,234 second question. Uh I think in a very same topic um listed 1929 01:19:24,234 --> 01:19:26,867 a very same topic um listed here by the audience. Okay, I 1930 01:19:26,867 --> 01:19:28,299 here by the audience. Okay, I just lost. I just lost the 1931 01:19:28,299 --> 01:19:29,933 just lost. I just lost the question but um perhaps a 1932 01:19:29,933 --> 01:19:35,000 question but um perhaps a reaction from. Maria that 1933 01:19:36,699 --> 01:19:40,699 Um I mean I think that we have 1934 01:19:40,699 --> 01:19:43,767 Um I mean I think that we have to be extremely deliberate 1935 01:19:43,767 --> 01:19:47,333 to be extremely deliberate about maintaining US European 1936 01:19:47,333 --> 01:19:49,234 about maintaining US European ties. I’ll I’ll start by saying 1937 01:19:49,234 --> 01:19:51,833 ties. I’ll I’ll start by saying that I second everything, Alex 1938 01:19:51,833 --> 01:19:53,966 that I second everything, Alex said about how the EU should 1939 01:19:53,966 --> 01:19:55,233 said about how the EU should use its power and it should 1940 01:19:55,233 --> 01:19:56,867 use its power and it should play and one of the reasons I 1941 01:19:56,867 --> 01:19:58,234 play and one of the reasons I second. that is that for many 1942 01:19:58,234 --> 01:20:00,933 second. that is that for many Americans who do not feel a 1943 01:20:00,933 --> 01:20:01,967 Americans who do not feel a connection to Europe and I’m 1944 01:20:01,967 --> 01:20:04,433 connection to Europe and I’m gonna come back to that. We 1945 01:20:04,433 --> 01:20:07,667 gonna come back to that. We will pay attention to power 1946 01:20:07,667 --> 01:20:09,467 will pay attention to power economic power or military 1947 01:20:09,467 --> 01:20:10,767 economic power or military power, and the EU has more 1948 01:20:10,767 --> 01:20:12,300 power, and the EU has more military power than most 1949 01:20:12,300 --> 01:20:13,933 military power than most Europeans realize in terms of 1950 01:20:13,933 --> 01:20:15,767 Europeans realize in terms of how many troops that has 1951 01:20:15,767 --> 01:20:17,699 how many troops that has deployed around the world and 1952 01:20:17,699 --> 01:20:20,167 deployed around the world and how uh US military adventures 1953 01:20:20,167 --> 01:20:22,800 how uh US military adventures uh really depend in many ways 1954 01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:24,400 uh really depend in many ways on European support, but 1955 01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:26,867 on European support, but sticking to GO economics uh 1956 01:20:26,867 --> 01:20:29,300 sticking to GO economics uh when the EU developed the euro 1957 01:20:29,300 --> 01:20:31,534 when the EU developed the euro lots of American foreign policy 1958 01:20:31,534 --> 01:20:32,267 lots of American foreign policy experts started paying more 1959 01:20:32,267 --> 01:20:33,833 experts started paying more attention and the stronger. 1960 01:20:33,833 --> 01:20:35,534 attention and the stronger. Euro gets in the stronger 1961 01:20:35,534 --> 01:20:37,767 Euro gets in the stronger European competition policy 1962 01:20:37,767 --> 01:20:38,867 European competition policy regulatory policy, all that 1963 01:20:38,867 --> 01:20:41,567 regulatory policy, all that gets the more Americans will 1964 01:20:41,567 --> 01:20:43,300 gets the more Americans will pay attention, but here’s why 1965 01:20:43,300 --> 01:20:45,967 pay attention, but here’s why that’s so important. I’m half 1966 01:20:45,967 --> 01:20:47,333 that’s so important. I’m half Belgian. I grew up going back 1967 01:20:47,333 --> 01:20:49,267 Belgian. I grew up going back and forth to Europe. Most 1968 01:20:49,267 --> 01:20:51,266 and forth to Europe. Most Americans educated Americans of 1969 01:20:51,266 --> 01:20:53,400 Americans educated Americans of my generation part of of 1970 01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:54,933 my generation part of of finishing your education was 1971 01:20:54,933 --> 01:20:57,333 finishing your education was the European Grand Tour. 1972 01:20:57,333 --> 01:20:59,266 the European Grand Tour. American history was completely 1973 01:20:59,266 --> 01:21:01,267 American history was completely bound up with Europe and most 1974 01:21:01,267 --> 01:21:02,767 bound up with Europe and most American immigration and and 1975 01:21:02,767 --> 01:21:04,867 American immigration and and their you will know that the 1976 01:21:04,867 --> 01:21:07,834 their you will know that the community is. Strong uh all 1977 01:21:07,834 --> 01:21:09,366 community is. Strong uh all that they were originally the 1978 01:21:09,366 --> 01:21:11,766 that they were originally the Anglo Saxon and uh really are 1979 01:21:11,766 --> 01:21:13,700 Anglo Saxon and uh really are the basis of our of of 1980 01:21:13,700 --> 01:21:14,800 the basis of our of of Americans, and then, of course 1981 01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:17,201 Americans, and then, of course it expands through Europe, but 1982 01:21:17,201 --> 01:21:20,700 it expands through Europe, but I cannot emphasize this enough. 1983 01:21:20,700 --> 01:21:22,833 I cannot emphasize this enough. We are becoming a different 1984 01:21:22,833 --> 01:21:26,000 We are becoming a different country already by Twenty-seven 1985 01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:27,500 country already by Twenty-seven Whites will not be a majority 1986 01:21:27,500 --> 01:21:29,600 Whites will not be a majority of Americans under thirty and 1987 01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:31,266 of Americans under thirty and that’s already true today and 1988 01:21:31,266 --> 01:21:33,900 that’s already true today and of under eighteen and so the 1989 01:21:33,900 --> 01:21:36,667 of under eighteen and so the you know African. Asian 1990 01:21:36,667 --> 01:21:39,266 you know African. Asian Americans Americans when they 1991 01:21:39,266 --> 01:21:41,167 Americans Americans when they look at America’s history and 1992 01:21:41,167 --> 01:21:43,267 look at America’s history and they look at their own social 1993 01:21:43,267 --> 01:21:46,000 they look at their own social ties. Those are not to Europe 1994 01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:48,400 ties. Those are not to Europe or if they are they’re the afro 1995 01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:50,800 or if they are they’re the afro Europeans or Asian Europeans uh 1996 01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:54,900 Europeans or Asian Europeans uh or Arab Europeans and there are 1997 01:21:54,900 --> 01:21:55,567 or Arab Europeans and there are relatively fewer. But that 1998 01:21:55,567 --> 01:21:58,667 relatively fewer. But that means that the social glue and 1999 01:21:58,667 --> 01:22:00,500 means that the social glue and the historical glue that is 2000 01:22:00,500 --> 01:22:02,767 the historical glue that is under pinned our economic and 2001 01:22:02,767 --> 01:22:06,400 under pinned our economic and political relations is. So 2002 01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,734 political relations is. So without a very deliberate 2003 01:22:08,734 --> 01:22:11,266 without a very deliberate effort to cultivate ties among 2004 01:22:11,266 --> 01:22:12,734 effort to cultivate ties among new generations of Europeans 2005 01:22:12,734 --> 01:22:13,966 new generations of Europeans and new generations of 2006 01:22:13,966 --> 01:22:15,500 and new generations of Americans and just wait until 2007 01:22:15,500 --> 01:22:17,167 Americans and just wait until you see what the administration 2008 01:22:17,167 --> 01:22:18,234 you see what the administration is gonna look like in terms of 2009 01:22:18,234 --> 01:22:21,133 is gonna look like in terms of who’s actually in it. uh it 2010 01:22:21,133 --> 01:22:23,167 who’s actually in it. uh it wins uh and then I fear we 2011 01:22:23,167 --> 01:22:25,600 wins uh and then I fear we really are continents drifting 2012 01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:27,267 really are continents drifting apart easier on the values but 2013 01:22:27,267 --> 01:22:29,967 apart easier on the values but the values again or just a 2014 01:22:29,967 --> 01:22:32,733 the values again or just a piece of our historic ties. 2015 01:22:32,733 --> 01:22:35,267 piece of our historic ties. Thank you absolutely. Let me 2016 01:22:35,267 --> 01:22:36,934 Thank you absolutely. Let me turn to another question by 2017 01:22:36,934 --> 01:22:39,733 turn to another question by Mattis living uh how could the 2018 01:22:39,733 --> 01:22:41,700 Mattis living uh how could the you effectively will its 2019 01:22:41,700 --> 01:22:43,400 you effectively will its economic policy instruments in 2020 01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:44,933 economic policy instruments in an increasingly fractured and 2021 01:22:44,933 --> 01:22:49,967 an increasingly fractured and divided society um will society 2022 01:22:49,967 --> 01:22:51,400 divided society um will society quality willing to remain open 2023 01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:53,967 quality willing to remain open so turning to the you of what’s 2024 01:22:53,967 --> 01:22:55,634 so turning to the you of what’s happening inside Europe, which 2025 01:22:55,634 --> 01:22:59,466 happening inside Europe, which is also changing in a way uh 2026 01:22:59,466 --> 01:23:00,899 is also changing in a way uh significantly who would like to 2027 01:23:00,899 --> 01:23:04,533 significantly who would like to take that up. 2028 01:23:04,700 --> 01:23:06,066 Well, I can give it a little 2029 01:23:06,066 --> 01:23:09,834 Well, I can give it a little bit of a stub um just a small 2030 01:23:09,834 --> 01:23:12,700 bit of a stub um just a small sort of uh answer to that. Um 2031 01:23:12,700 --> 01:23:14,533 sort of uh answer to that. Um you know we have a tendency to 2032 01:23:14,533 --> 01:23:18,266 you know we have a tendency to quite often to would I put it 2033 01:23:18,266 --> 01:23:20,500 quite often to would I put it exaggerate or over dramatized 2034 01:23:20,500 --> 01:23:22,434 exaggerate or over dramatized and Europeans. Yes, it exists. 2035 01:23:22,434 --> 01:23:24,634 and Europeans. Yes, it exists. They are strong nationalistic 2036 01:23:24,634 --> 01:23:26,366 They are strong nationalistic movements. They’re strong and 2037 01:23:26,366 --> 01:23:28,234 movements. They’re strong and European movements. We’re 2038 01:23:28,234 --> 01:23:29,966 European movements. We’re seeing at the European behavior 2039 01:23:29,966 --> 01:23:31,299 seeing at the European behavior by governments um you know in 2040 01:23:31,299 --> 01:23:34,399 by governments um you know in Hungary uh in Poland and 2041 01:23:34,399 --> 01:23:35,434 Hungary uh in Poland and elsewhere, we’re seeing a lot 2042 01:23:35,434 --> 01:23:38,534 elsewhere, we’re seeing a lot of EU bashing. But there are 2043 01:23:38,534 --> 01:23:39,867 of EU bashing. But there are two events that give me at 2044 01:23:39,867 --> 01:23:41,200 two events that give me at least as an eternal optimist. 2045 01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:44,667 least as an eternal optimist. uh a little bit of hope uh 2046 01:23:44,667 --> 01:23:46,400 uh a little bit of hope uh about the European spirit or 2047 01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:47,700 about the European spirit or how people take Europe into 2048 01:23:47,700 --> 01:23:50,366 how people take Europe into their hearts. Uh one was Brexit 2049 01:23:50,366 --> 01:23:51,767 their hearts. Uh one was Brexit as much as I hated it not only 2050 01:23:51,767 --> 01:23:53,567 as much as I hated it not only because I’m married to a breath 2051 01:23:53,567 --> 01:23:56,834 because I’m married to a breath and uh 75% of our family has 2052 01:23:56,834 --> 01:23:58,300 and uh 75% of our family has dual nationality, but that 2053 01:23:58,300 --> 01:23:59,767 dual nationality, but that third emotion, I think a lot of 2054 01:23:59,767 --> 01:24:01,233 third emotion, I think a lot of Europeans at that moment 2055 01:24:01,233 --> 01:24:02,667 Europeans at that moment understood what it means to be 2056 01:24:02,667 --> 01:24:04,099 understood what it means to be European and it actually if we 2057 01:24:04,099 --> 01:24:05,833 European and it actually if we look at euros that increased 2058 01:24:05,833 --> 01:24:09,733 look at euros that increased the popularity of. European 2059 01:24:09,733 --> 01:24:11,799 the popularity of. European Union and the second one is is 2060 01:24:11,799 --> 01:24:13,600 Union and the second one is is is Cove nineteen I know it 2061 01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:14,867 is Cove nineteen I know it looks a little bit better in 2062 01:24:14,867 --> 01:24:15,866 looks a little bit better in the beginning and I don’t need 2063 01:24:15,866 --> 01:24:17,666 the beginning and I don’t need to say it’s when I cycled down 2064 01:24:17,666 --> 01:24:19,134 to say it’s when I cycled down the roads to Florence and see 2065 01:24:19,134 --> 01:24:21,234 the roads to Florence and see the flags, which is still left 2066 01:24:21,234 --> 01:24:22,834 the flags, which is still left hanging from the windows 2067 01:24:22,834 --> 01:24:24,301 hanging from the windows because there was a sentiment 2068 01:24:24,301 --> 01:24:25,934 because there was a sentiment that China was doing more for 2069 01:24:25,934 --> 01:24:29,167 that China was doing more for uh Italy than than Europe, but 2070 01:24:29,167 --> 01:24:29,967 uh Italy than than Europe, but you know when push comes to 2071 01:24:29,967 --> 01:24:33,533 you know when push comes to shove, we just saw uh I think a 2072 01:24:33,533 --> 01:24:35,133 shove, we just saw uh I think a colossal rescue package from 2073 01:24:35,133 --> 01:24:36,733 colossal rescue package from the European Union like we’ve 2074 01:24:36,733 --> 01:24:39,233 the European Union like we’ve seen time. Four and it’s 2075 01:24:39,233 --> 01:24:41,167 seen time. Four and it’s something which you and I 2076 01:24:41,167 --> 01:24:42,733 something which you and I talked about this before was 2077 01:24:42,733 --> 01:24:44,600 talked about this before was put together in 4 months as 2078 01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:46,699 put together in 4 months as opposed to the 4 years of the 2079 01:24:46,699 --> 01:24:48,267 opposed to the 4 years of the SM. So you know Europe is doing 2080 01:24:48,267 --> 01:24:50,867 SM. So you know Europe is doing kind of good stuff so I think 2081 01:24:50,867 --> 01:24:53,167 kind of good stuff so I think to answer the question uh we’re 2082 01:24:53,167 --> 01:24:55,100 to answer the question uh we’re not ever gonna become a utopia, 2083 01:24:55,100 --> 01:24:57,333 not ever gonna become a utopia, especially a utopia where by 2084 01:24:57,333 --> 01:24:58,000 especially a utopia where by national leaders are gonna say. 2085 01:24:58,000 --> 01:24:59,367 national leaders are gonna say. Thank you. Brussels. You just 2086 01:24:59,367 --> 01:25:01,867 Thank you. Brussels. You just did it for me. I love you uh 2087 01:25:01,867 --> 01:25:02,867 did it for me. I love you uh there’s always gonna be a 2088 01:25:02,867 --> 01:25:05,234 there’s always gonna be a Brussels Bing uh but I think 2089 01:25:05,234 --> 01:25:06,699 Brussels Bing uh but I think this will drag and I’m with 2090 01:25:06,699 --> 01:25:07,533 this will drag and I’m with Anne Marie on this, it will 2091 01:25:07,533 --> 01:25:09,966 Anne Marie on this, it will drag the younger generation uh 2092 01:25:09,966 --> 01:25:14,266 drag the younger generation uh along. In this sort of uh 2093 01:25:14,266 --> 01:25:15,634 along. In this sort of uh European network, so I’m not 2094 01:25:15,634 --> 01:25:17,334 European network, so I’m not excessively worried about it. 2095 01:25:17,334 --> 01:25:19,466 excessively worried about it. Hopefully I’m not even too 2096 01:25:19,466 --> 01:25:22,633 Hopefully I’m not even too optimistic. 2097 01:25:22,934 --> 01:25:25,834 Thank you uh let me check if I 2098 01:25:25,834 --> 01:25:27,467 Thank you uh let me check if I have another question the 2099 01:25:27,467 --> 01:25:29,967 have another question the question by Roberto Castile, an 2100 01:25:29,967 --> 01:25:31,433 question by Roberto Castile, an international monetary system, 2101 01:25:31,433 --> 01:25:34,867 international monetary system, but it’s a sort of getting late 2102 01:25:34,867 --> 01:25:37,767 but it’s a sort of getting late to address uh such a highly 2103 01:25:37,767 --> 01:25:43,467 to address uh such a highly specific and technical issue um 2104 01:25:43,467 --> 01:25:45,234 specific and technical issue um while another question on the 2105 01:25:45,234 --> 01:25:47,566 while another question on the on the road of the euro, so 2106 01:25:47,566 --> 01:25:49,967 on the road of the euro, so perhaps we should be addressing 2107 01:25:49,967 --> 01:25:51,067 perhaps we should be addressing it nevertheless uh you know I 2108 01:25:51,067 --> 01:25:57,234 it nevertheless uh you know I mean. That the the the euro 2109 01:25:57,234 --> 01:25:57,267 mean. That the the the euro um 2110 01:25:57,267 --> 01:25:59,699 um what I mean, what sort of 2111 01:25:59,699 --> 01:26:01,467 um what I mean, what sort of level of priority should we be 2112 01:26:01,467 --> 01:26:03,799 level of priority should we be putting on on that, which is a 2113 01:26:03,799 --> 01:26:07,233 putting on on that, which is a sort of uh traditionally that’s 2114 01:26:07,233 --> 01:26:09,299 sort of uh traditionally that’s a grand project of the of the U 2115 01:26:09,299 --> 01:26:11,633 a grand project of the of the U um over the last 30 years, I 2116 01:26:11,633 --> 01:26:14,534 um over the last 30 years, I mean that’s the most uh you 2117 01:26:14,534 --> 01:26:18,266 mean that’s the most uh you know ambitious project is it 2118 01:26:18,266 --> 01:26:19,733 know ambitious project is it time to turn it into something 2119 01:26:19,733 --> 01:26:21,533 time to turn it into something of a different dimension and 2120 01:26:21,533 --> 01:26:23,333 of a different dimension and and why so I like you you give 2121 01:26:23,333 --> 01:26:25,000 and why so I like you you give your view already. perhaps we 2122 01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,167 your view already. perhaps we could. Here I think we wanna 2123 01:26:27,167 --> 01:26:29,899 could. Here I think we wanna hear your view on this man. you 2124 01:26:29,899 --> 01:26:31,867 hear your view on this man. you know you have a year. I came 2125 01:26:31,867 --> 01:26:35,400 know you have a year. I came here think so yes I do I do 2126 01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:39,034 here think so yes I do I do think it’s uh I think it was 2127 01:26:39,034 --> 01:26:41,167 think it’s uh I think it was very appropriate for the first 2128 01:26:41,167 --> 01:26:42,666 very appropriate for the first decades to say we’re building 2129 01:26:42,666 --> 01:26:45,767 decades to say we’re building the U internally uh and we’re 2130 01:26:45,767 --> 01:26:48,400 the U internally uh and we’re not trying to push it down. Um 2131 01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:50,799 not trying to push it down. Um you know these are encouraged 2132 01:26:50,799 --> 01:26:53,333 you know these are encouraged not discouraged. I think first 2133 01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:55,267 not discouraged. I think first that the world has changed and 2134 01:26:55,267 --> 01:26:56,867 that the world has changed and our partners need to know what 2135 01:26:56,867 --> 01:26:59,933 our partners need to know what kind of currencies. Euro is you 2136 01:26:59,933 --> 01:27:02,234 kind of currencies. Euro is you know, is it a currency you can 2137 01:27:02,234 --> 01:27:05,000 know, is it a currency you can build on if you want to have an 2138 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,200 build on if you want to have an alternative to the US dollar, 2139 01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:08,933 alternative to the US dollar, which means in terms of crisis, 2140 01:27:08,933 --> 01:27:11,167 which means in terms of crisis, is you going to provide 2141 01:27:11,167 --> 01:27:13,701 is you going to provide liquidity in euros? which is 2142 01:27:13,701 --> 01:27:15,299 liquidity in euros? which is you know absolutely needed? Uh 2143 01:27:15,299 --> 01:27:17,767 you know absolutely needed? Uh if your banks are using the the 2144 01:27:17,767 --> 01:27:19,800 if your banks are using the the the euro uh so those are 2145 01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:21,133 the euro uh so those are important questions and and 2146 01:27:21,133 --> 01:27:23,699 important questions and and this is a test for the for the 2147 01:27:23,699 --> 01:27:25,733 this is a test for the for the euro because it means the ECB 2148 01:27:25,733 --> 01:27:27,733 euro because it means the ECB has to have a mandate to do 2149 01:27:27,733 --> 01:27:29,033 has to have a mandate to do that. it means taking some 2150 01:27:29,033 --> 01:27:30,600 that. it means taking some risks as we know from the 2151 01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:31,967 risks as we know from the Federal Reserve, the Federal 2152 01:27:31,967 --> 01:27:35,134 Federal Reserve, the Federal Reserve. 2153 01:28:10,366 --> 01:28:12,467 Good uh it is still not a 2154 01:28:12,467 --> 01:28:13,833 Good uh it is still not a global public good, but it’s 2155 01:28:13,833 --> 01:28:14,667 global public good, but it’s also an instrument of the of 2156 01:28:14,667 --> 01:28:16,900 also an instrument of the of the US administration and the 2157 01:28:16,900 --> 01:28:19,467 the US administration and the ramming is certainly it’s much 2158 01:28:19,467 --> 01:28:21,833 ramming is certainly it’s much more an instrument of Chinese 2159 01:28:21,833 --> 01:28:23,367 more an instrument of Chinese power than anything else at 2160 01:28:23,367 --> 01:28:24,801 power than anything else at present such currency. I mean 2161 01:28:24,801 --> 01:28:25,967 present such currency. I mean it’s not an international 2162 01:28:25,967 --> 01:28:28,234 it’s not an international currency but it it’s an 2163 01:28:28,234 --> 01:28:29,967 currency but it it’s an instrument of Chinese power. So 2164 01:28:29,967 --> 01:28:30,867 instrument of Chinese power. So I think in this kind of world, 2165 01:28:30,867 --> 01:28:32,699 I think in this kind of world, we have to change our attitude 2166 01:28:32,699 --> 01:28:35,334 we have to change our attitude toward you. So perhaps now I 2167 01:28:35,334 --> 01:28:38,467 toward you. So perhaps now I put my view forward to the 2168 01:28:38,467 --> 01:28:42,066 put my view forward to the disagreements in. 2169 01:29:10,634 --> 01:29:12,600 You can either go further with 2170 01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:16,234 You can either go further with the process or go back going 2171 01:29:16,234 --> 01:29:18,734 the process or go back going back is a bit tricky. uh with a 2172 01:29:18,734 --> 01:29:21,400 back is a bit tricky. uh with a military union uh so I’m not 2173 01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:22,899 military union uh so I’m not gonna go into into the details. 2174 01:29:22,899 --> 01:29:24,566 gonna go into into the details. What we all we know that this 2175 01:29:24,566 --> 01:29:26,699 What we all we know that this is this is a very um very 2176 01:29:26,699 --> 01:29:30,000 is this is a very um very complicated process uh but if 2177 01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:33,767 complicated process uh but if we do what Alex is proposing so 2178 01:29:33,767 --> 01:29:37,267 we do what Alex is proposing so doing 75% of things uh with the 2179 01:29:37,267 --> 01:29:38,867 doing 75% of things uh with the United States in 25 with the 2180 01:29:38,867 --> 01:29:41,966 United States in 25 with the with China and wings that if 2181 01:29:41,966 --> 01:29:43,933 with China and wings that if China is still a humble giant. 2182 01:29:43,933 --> 01:29:46,400 China is still a humble giant. giant, uh which. With whom we 2183 01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:49,234 giant, uh which. With whom we can trade easily and having a 2184 01:29:49,234 --> 01:29:51,967 can trade easily and having a more um uh currency that they 2185 01:29:51,967 --> 01:29:54,467 more um uh currency that they can use, for example, sometimes 2186 01:29:54,467 --> 01:29:56,933 can use, for example, sometimes could be useful and this could 2187 01:29:56,933 --> 01:29:59,333 could be useful and this could also bring influence of the 2188 01:29:59,333 --> 01:30:02,700 also bring influence of the European Union. We’re coming to 2189 01:30:02,700 --> 01:30:07,933 European Union. We’re coming to close uh any pressing need to 2190 01:30:07,933 --> 01:30:10,333 close uh any pressing need to express you on this particular 2191 01:30:10,333 --> 01:30:13,000 express you on this particular question or comment. Yes, 2192 01:30:13,000 --> 01:30:15,801 question or comment. Yes, please one thing uh it maybe 2193 01:30:15,801 --> 01:30:19,600 please one thing uh it maybe naive to believe that China is 2194 01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:22,233 naive to believe that China is going to remain if it’s still 2195 01:30:22,233 --> 01:30:24,667 going to remain if it’s still is an humble drive. It is a dry 2196 01:30:24,667 --> 01:30:28,700 is an humble drive. It is a dry and it’s less than ever and uh 2197 01:30:28,700 --> 01:30:30,667 and it’s less than ever and uh it’s not going in the right 2198 01:30:30,667 --> 01:30:32,867 it’s not going in the right direction and it’s not going to 2199 01:30:32,867 --> 01:30:35,000 direction and it’s not going to go in the right direction so uh 2200 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:44,267 go in the right direction so uh we have to. A reality Natalie I 2201 01:30:44,267 --> 01:30:49,900 we have to. A reality Natalie I think you want to say. She’s 2202 01:30:49,900 --> 01:30:51,201 think you want to say. She’s left most probably she’s left 2203 01:30:51,201 --> 01:30:53,033 left most probably she’s left no. I’m here. I’m here you’re 2204 01:30:53,033 --> 01:30:55,533 no. I’m here. I’m here you’re here. I’m here but no nothing 2205 01:30:55,533 --> 01:30:59,201 here. I’m here but no nothing drown Okay. Let me let me thank 2206 01:30:59,201 --> 01:31:01,000 drown Okay. Let me let me thank all the panels we had a very 2207 01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:03,433 all the panels we had a very broad topic so we did not exist 2208 01:31:03,433 --> 01:31:05,866 broad topic so we did not exist by far uh the release of 2209 01:31:05,866 --> 01:31:06,234 by far uh the release of question we could have 2210 01:31:06,234 --> 01:31:08,699 question we could have addressed, but I think we we 2211 01:31:08,699 --> 01:31:10,367 addressed, but I think we we went some way and uh I think 2212 01:31:10,367 --> 01:31:12,834 went some way and uh I think there was a number of points on 2213 01:31:12,834 --> 01:31:14,334 there was a number of points on which the certain degree of 2214 01:31:14,334 --> 01:31:16,900 which the certain degree of consensus in in in the panel, 2215 01:31:16,900 --> 01:31:19,267 consensus in in in the panel, even so at the start of my uh 2216 01:31:19,267 --> 01:31:21,834 even so at the start of my uh sort of depiction of the uh uh 2217 01:31:21,834 --> 01:31:24,299 sort of depiction of the uh uh of the landscape was was 2218 01:31:24,299 --> 01:31:25,133 of the landscape was was challenged. I don’t see this 2219 01:31:25,133 --> 01:31:27,733 challenged. I don’t see this was a very deep agreement on a 2220 01:31:27,733 --> 01:31:28,933 was a very deep agreement on a number of other issues and on 2221 01:31:28,933 --> 01:31:31,967 number of other issues and on on the page I think we we of 2222 01:31:31,967 --> 01:31:35,467 on the page I think we we of uh. That we have entered a 2223 01:31:35,467 --> 01:31:38,467 uh. That we have entered a different world um and that in 2224 01:31:38,467 --> 01:31:42,234 different world um and that in this world with the US changing 2225 01:31:42,234 --> 01:31:44,234 this world with the US changing and changing also for 2226 01:31:44,234 --> 01:31:46,000 and changing also for fundamental domestic reasons 2227 01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:49,700 fundamental domestic reasons that uh ages have we China 2228 01:31:49,700 --> 01:31:52,266 that uh ages have we China changing uh as a term, just 2229 01:31:52,266 --> 01:31:53,033 changing uh as a term, just said, you know, becoming a much 2230 01:31:53,033 --> 01:31:55,234 said, you know, becoming a much more assertive This has 2231 01:31:55,234 --> 01:31:57,634 more assertive This has profound implications for the U 2232 01:31:57,634 --> 01:31:59,167 profound implications for the U that doesn’t require you to 2233 01:31:59,167 --> 01:32:00,700 that doesn’t require you to become something it is not uh 2234 01:32:00,700 --> 01:32:03,333 become something it is not uh you know we’d. Saying that you 2235 01:32:03,333 --> 01:32:05,733 you know we’d. Saying that you should become a super state but 2236 01:32:05,733 --> 01:32:07,334 should become a super state but the you should make full use of 2237 01:32:07,334 --> 01:32:09,900 the you should make full use of the instrument it has and 2238 01:32:09,900 --> 01:32:11,866 the instrument it has and should be very realistic in its 2239 01:32:11,866 --> 01:32:13,200 should be very realistic in its assessment of the environment 2240 01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:14,400 assessment of the environment in which it has to to behave 2241 01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:16,701 in which it has to to behave and it has to take into 2242 01:32:16,701 --> 01:32:18,234 and it has to take into account. I would say the 2243 01:32:18,234 --> 01:32:19,967 account. I would say the geopolitical dimension in its 2244 01:32:19,967 --> 01:32:23,300 geopolitical dimension in its economic policies, so it’s not 2245 01:32:23,300 --> 01:32:23,900 economic policies, so it’s not creating instruments that do 2246 01:32:23,900 --> 01:32:26,467 creating instruments that do not exist, but it’s taking into 2247 01:32:26,467 --> 01:32:29,866 not exist, but it’s taking into account this is a new dimension 2248 01:32:29,866 --> 01:32:34,000 account this is a new dimension uh in trade in. 2249 01:33:02,700 --> 01:33:04,234 Meeting but it continues 2250 01:33:04,234 --> 01:33:06,867 Meeting but it continues tomorrow so uh you know, see 2251 01:33:06,867 --> 01:33:08,266 tomorrow so uh you know, see you tomorrow for those who are 2252 01:33:08,266 --> 01:33:11,167 you tomorrow for those who are listening and thank you for 2253 01:33:11,167 --> 01:33:13,966 listening and thank you for listening. Thank you very much. 2254 01:33:13,966 --> 01:33:15,234 listening. Thank you very much. Thanks everybody. This was 2255 01:33:15,234 --> 01:33:18,467 Thanks everybody. This was great. Thanks. Thank you very 2256 01:33:18,467 --> 01:33:19,500 great. Thanks. Thank you very much. thanks a lot. It was fun. 2257 01:33:19,500 --> 01:33:21,534 much. thanks a lot. It was fun. Thank you very much see you 2258 01:33:21,534 --> 01:33:24,634 Thank you very much see you later.